Episode 121: Anorexia Recovery & Learning To Listen To Your Body With Katherine Herbison
Episode 121: Anorexia Recovery & Learning To Listen To Your Body With Katherine Herbison
In this episode we sit down with....Katherine Herbison.
Katherine Herbison is a wellness blogger at katherineherbison.com, virtual assistant, pilates instructor in training and eating disorder survivor passionate about inspiring women to slow down and find beauty in everyday life.
In this conversation we talk about:
Katherine’s personal body image story- her experience with anorexia and the denial of her eating disorder
Her recovery journey- how listening to her body and intuitive eating played a huge role
The definition of set-point weight and the fluctuation that will occur
The importance of self compassion and practical ways to bring it in into your life
Tools that Katherine cultivated to sit with the difficult emotions that came up during recovery
Connect with our guest...
Website: katherineherbison.com
Resources we mention in this episode…
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TRANSCRIPTION Episode 121: Anorexia Recovery & Learning To Listen To Your Body With Katherine Herbison
Katelyn:
Katherine. Hello, love. Thank you so much for being here.
Katherine:
Hello, I am so excited to be chatting with you today, girl.
Katelyn:
I'm so excited. For everybody listening, I just did a podcast episode on Katherine's podcast, it was the first time we connected even though we have all of these mutual friends. And so this is our first one on one date that you're witnessing right now. So I'm just so grateful for you being here and us having the time to just connect and talk about a lot of these topics. So thank you so, so much.
Katherine:
I love how you put that one on one date. Because it really is. This is like us getting coffee for the first time.
Katelyn:
That's my favorite part about doing these podcasts interviews, it really is just authentic conversations and connections that we can share with the rest of the world. And it means so much to me that you're here. So let's jump in. Because we have so much to talk about. Is that cool? Yeah. Okay. So if you could just start by sharing your first body awareness moment, we always ask this question, that first moment that you realized I'm in a body. And this means something in the world that I live in.
Katherine:
Hmm, yeah. So I don't remember like how old I was or the specifics. And I don't really, it wasn't like this single moment. But it was probably around force. Fourth grade fifth, definitely fifth grade. And I noticed is probably when my body started changing. So yeah, around end of fourth grade ish. And my body started changing. And I just different than some of my other friends. And of course, I went to the people that were smaller. I don't know why. But I just noticed that I was different than them. I felt, I remember feeling insecure about my size, as well as my belly at that time. And yeah, again, it's not a specific moment, or like a specific event. It was just this all of a sudden this awareness. And I think it was probably around the time that my body started changing.
Katelyn:
Yeah, that's such a pivotal time, like the end of elementary school, moving into middle school, and just that whole transition and everything. When you said that you went to people and started just talking about the emotions that you were experiencing, and just this, this shifts within your body. Were those? Were those close friends? Was it family? What did that circle look like for you?
Katherine:
I think it started off with close friends. I was in a really small school, and was part of a pretty, pretty small community. And so I think it was starting off with peers and friends. And you know, at that age, I went through puberty or started puberty pretty early, I think in comparison to other people as well. So yeah, it was definitely peers. But then later on, it became family as well. I have two sisters. So and we're all pretty close in age. So of course there was that comparison as well.
Katelyn:
So having this, this body shifts, and all of these things coming up for you. How did that impact your relationship with your body? Is it? And also, what did you do with this information to were you? What were you watching? What were you reading? Where? Where were you getting the comparison? That was coming up for you at the time?
Katherine:
That's really kind of the start of it all. So I could answer that and just go into the story if that's okay. Yeah, please. Okay, so yeah, so it was probably around fourth grade, fifth grade. So a little fact about myself is I actually grew up in Moscow, Russia, so my parents were Americans who worked overseas. And I grew up in a large I mean, huge metropolitan city. And so there was it's, you know, a lot of high fashion appearance outward appearance is highly prized Russian women are kind of known to be the ideal beauty. And so I was surrounded by that all the time where there's just this this pressure of fitting the mold or fitting the appearance I never had anyone comment negatively about my body size? Or I never my family was never dieting I mean of course now looking back I can just see the the diet message diet culture messages that are just kind of part of our colloquial now like cleaning your plate or you know, not eating Desert until you after I finished dinner, like those types of things, or maybe not having certain foods in the house, but there was nothing super direct, and I never had anyone on a diet in my family. So I think I'm just a very highly sensitive person and have for most of my life, especially younger, I struggled with a lot of insecurity. Because I was very shy, I was very introverted. And so I think as I started becoming more aware of myself at that young age, I was getting very insecure about who I was as a, as a girl, especially, you know, these friends that I had, who were more outgoing and who everyone kind of seemed to follow them. And I, at that time, thought there was something wrong with me for being quiet, and being introverted, and liking to be at home, all of these things that now I have grown to appreciate about myself and seeing that that's a strength of mine. But back then I just didn't have that knowledge or that awareness. So what I did with that information, again, it was very much internal and internal processing. And in fifth grade is also when I started going through puberty. So there were a lot of changes happening hormonally that I was, no one prepared me for. I had no clue what was going on. But I remember just being an emotional roller coaster. And I felt internally that things were just so unstable. And so I don't know, I just, I felt like I was completely out of my comfort zone. And I had no clue what was going on. I was also very unhappy with my body. I saw myself as being I guess, I would say chubby, and I was not athletic, I was very much a homebody, you know, all these things. And so it was around, and I remember just like crying about it as a fifth grader, just crying about my body and thinking, I'm never, like, I'm never going to get married as a fifth grader, I just can't play. Like all of these, like, I'm never gonna get married, I'm never going to be successful because of my body. And finally, it was the summer between Fifth and Sixth grade, I decided, I just remember distinctly, I was like, I'm gonna get healthier. I had no idea what that meant. I think, and I don't know where this influence came from. But in my mind, I was like, because we didn't have social media back then. Right. And I was living in a foreign country. So I didn't have like magazines or books or anything that I understood. So I, I don't know where this came from somewhere. But I was, you know, in my mind was the whole calories in calories out type of a thing. So I really started and low fat too. So I started eating like, I was terrified as well. I wasn't terrified. At first, I started just like really watching what I was eating and starting to exercise, and it quickly spiraled into an obsession. And by the start of sixth grade, I was at a pretty unstable point, with anorexia. And that's just, you know, part of my personality too, when I like, go after something, I go hardcore, and I just really took it to the extreme. And I, what happened at that point was I was living in Russia there, we didn't have the treatment centers, or the therapists or the dieticians that we would have here in the US, even in Russia, they don't, at least at that time, and even when I left, I don't even think they had a word for eating disorder, even though they're completely rampant in the population. So anyway, so my parents did the best that they could. And they started kind of watching me and making sure I was eating regular meals and things like that.
Katelyn:
And can I ask a question real quick? How did you come to terms with the fact that you had anorexia who did anybody nudge you? Or did you just kind of get that intuitive hit that you needed to get some help? Did you ever feel like somebody called you out or anything like that? How did it come up?
Katherine:
I'm so I was, I think what can happen for a lot of people who struggled with an eating disorder is that denial piece, your lack of awareness. So I actually wasn't I there was a period of the beginning of sixth grade where I really don't remember much at all. It's completely a blur, and that's most likely because I was very undernourished. Right? And I don't remember much, but it was more about me being you know, young, being in my parents home and And it was, there was just one day one situation where my parents kind of laid down the law and was like you have to eat. And so I don't know if I was actually aware, I think I was, but I didn't. I wasn't. I wasn't aware of the seriousness of it, if that makes sense, like I knew something was, wasn't right. But I wasn't sure what that was. And so I, and that's kind of what it was for the next. However, whatever is it six years middle school and high school. So sixth grade through till I graduated high school, is I lived in this was it looked like I was, quote, unquote, okay, because I was eating three meals a day and two snacks. And I was functioning. But I really wasn't. I just had so many rules, so many rules around what I ate, what I didn't eat, work out, I was extremely regimented, and everything. And I was terrified of gaining weight. And so I don't know exactly, I mean, it was a while ago, but I just knew I, I what I longed for, was to be at peace. I longed to be at peace with myself with food, but I didn't know how to get there, if that makes sense. And, and there were I mean, it was several years. So there were seasons where I mean, there were just different seasons in there. And there were certain seasons where it's like, I know I have an eating disorder. But again, I wasn't really aware of the seriousness of it, or what needed to happen. And I didn't have it in need to change anything, I wasn't aware of all the rules that I had, and how those just weren't normal. It's really hard to explain, but like, I just kind of lived in this quasi Eating disorder, not even I don't even want to say recovery, because I wasn't really it was more of like I was functioning. I had lots and lots and lots of rules. And I, it was finally my senior year of high school, and I graduated high school in Russia, from an international school and I there were a lot of changes coming up, I was going to be moving to the US starting college. And a theme that I've noticed in my life is I don't like change. And when things are changing, you get out of your comfort zone, and I love that comfort. And for me back then that would trigger me into controlling more. And so I started even kind of going deeper into my eating disorder towards the end of of high school, or my senior year, and actually my oldest sister came from the US for my graduation. And she sat me down one day and told me she was like, Katherine, you need help. And at that point, I was sick of living the life that I lived, I, I really I didn't have friends, I didn't really socialize much. I didn't really experience life, because my mind was totally surrounded by what I was going to eat, how I was going to fit things in how I was going to get my workout in all of these rules and everything and that fear of gaining weight. And I was ready, I was ready for change, even though I didn't know the seriousness of my situation, or what that was going to look like. But I was ready. And so moved back to the US and ended up doing IOP so intensive outpatient treatment, and ended up taking a gap year before going to college. To just focus on my healing. My parents moved back with me, so I lived with them. And what I say is, you know, my, the drive that I have and that goal orientation that I have that made me really good at an eating disorder, quote unquote good was the same skills I used to get out of it. And once I started treatment, it was kind of I put my trust in my dietician, my treatment team and what they told me to do, I did and I was like, I mean, I remember seeing, you know being with these women in this in this program and seeing women who were you know, in their 50s, or so much older who've been struggling for so many years are seeing people who were getting stuck in the patterns and relapsing. And that was motivation for me to get out of this. So, you know, it really, I would say it took a good five years. Um, yeah, we're in college for four years. So yeah, so five years to really have hard work. And daily choosing recovery, and daily choosing to do the opposite action of what my eating disorder wanted me to do. I say I essentially had to relearn how to eat, I had to let go of rules, I had to challenge so much, I had to work on my confidence. And I struggled a lot with social anxiety. And just so many layers of work, I worked with a dietitian for five years. And it was finally it was around on my sophomore year. And this was a huge turning point from there are several turning points for me. But this was a big turning point for me. Well, no, my junior year, so it was the summer before my junior year. Even still, up to that point, I you know, I was in a good spot, I was maintaining a healthy weight, I was eating regularly challenging food rules, things like that. But the one thing that was really hard to challenge or really to fix my relationship with was exercise. And it was kind of my crutch, even though I wasn't it wasn't obsessive, necessarily, like I wasn't over exercising. But there was still a lot of rules. And it was very regimented, like I have to work out this much, right, this can only count as a workout, that type of a thing. Interesting. And it was around that time that I actually was training for a marathon. And I injured myself to the point that I could not run, I could not walk upstairs, I had to drive uphill, like up the hill to school. And that I hurt my knee. And still to this day, nine years later, my knee still hurts. And it was one of the hardest things that I went through. But I think what I really needed to get over that final hump of full recovery, because what that forced me to do is it took away all of my coping my eating disorder, coping mechanisms, and forced me to sit with uncomfortable emotions and learn to trust my body. Because at that point, I was committed to not going back to restricting or giving into my eating disorder in that way. And but if I had an uncomfortable like, oh, well, I feel like I've gained weight, well, I'll just go work out, you know, that was what it was prior. And that would make me feel better. Like, okay, at least I'm okay. But now I couldn't even do that. So in those moments where I was struggling with body image, or the guilt of eating something, there was nothing I could do, that I used to be able to do. I had to sit with those emotions, I had to cry, I had to work through them. And ultimately, that's when I learned that my body is incredible. During that time, I mean, I haven't weighed myself in years, but you know, my clothes still fit. I haven't gained, I didn't gain significant amount of weight. Or I don't know if any weight in that period where I wasn't exercising, and I was eating the same amount. And what that showed me was again, that my body is incredibly smart. And that's when I really learned to understand that concept that I know now, which is setpoint weight. So setpoint weight in a nutshell is so our bodies actually control. There's internal mechanisms that control our weight. And it's like other regulatory systems in our body, like our heartbeat, sweating. You know, when we are hot, it'll sweat. So that will cool down. And when we're cold, it will get goosebumps because they're trying to constrict the I don't know what it is all the science but just trying to keep all the warmth inside. This is same thing with our weight. So I'm not a sciency person. And I've done a whole podcast on this on my podcast, but essentially, there's no connection between the brain and the rest of our body, that our body wants us to maintain a certain weight to maintain homeostasis because that's when we function with everything is functioning best. And especially as women that's when our hormones function best when we maintain a weight that our body says is good for us. So our body determines that and if we I'm here on thinking about okay, so it's a loaded question. I mean, it loaded question, but I'll there was a lot of science and it. And it's also determinant on genetics as well. It's 100. Yeah. So yeah. But the reality is, let's say, your your goal, weight is a certain number, but your setpoint weight is actually above that, you're going to, it's going to take a lot of effort to maintain that ideal weight that you have in your mind that's outside of that number, that that setpoint weight, because your body is going to do everything within its power to keep you at your setpoint weight. And it's actually a range, it's actually a pretty large range, your setpoint weight. And the reason for that is there's, you know, fluctuation, whether you know, as women, you're on your period, or different life stages, and it's okay to go up and down a little bit. Because that's normal, that doesn't mean that you have failed. And just to, you know, quote that my dietician said, and she didn't even say this is setpoint weight, she never talked about intuitive eating. But that's essentially the philosophy she was coming from. She said, your happy weight, or what I would say is your setpoint weight is the weight that you can maintain with little effort.
Katelyn:
Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. That's pretty much how I usually describe it to anybody who's asking just I always say it's your happy weight, it's just like the weight, where it's just you feeling good, and your body without a lot of work.
Katherine:
Yeah. So that means you can go on vacation, and eat and enjoy yourself and listen to your body, and not do crazy workouts to compensate for all the different foods you're eating, and you come back, and you're fine. Maybe you have some water weight, because you ate more salt, but you're gonna be fine. Or, you know, some days you eat more, some days you eat less, and it or you don't exercise one week, or you do exercise one week, and it's not going to make a difference, as opposed to you know, I think what we're told so much is, and what I believe for so many years is I have to control to the very minute to the ounce to the calorie, or else I'm going to gain weight. Well, actually, if you're under your setpoint range, then yes, your body is going to take every single ounce of food and energy that you get and utilize it because it's going to do everything within its power to get you at that setpoint weight that you're supposed to be. And so I was definitely say look it up check out Health at Every Size, or even intuitive eating. Because setpoint weight is it's an amazing thing. And for me, it was so freeing and i i personally realized it before I even heard of that concept, which actually leads into so it was around that junior year when I was working through this, this struggle with my injury and all these things. And that's actually when I found intuitive eating through the podcast, I think I was reading a lot of blogs like recovery blogs. And also through the podcast food psych, which I feel like so many people discover intuitive eating through Food Psych. Yeah. And with Christy Harrison Awesome. Yeah, yeah. And that's I just started soaking it up. Because in my recovery, you know, I didn't know how to make sense of health and nutrition. With the journey that I was going through and finding food freedom. I was like, I know, I don't want to restrict anything. In my life. Again, I've lived that life. It's not the way I want to live yet. I'm hearing so many messages about eat this, don't eat this. How do I make sense of all of this. And I was like it. This can't be life. Like we can't always be worried about our weight, we can always be concerned about what we're eating. And when I heard about intuitive eating, I was like, this makes complete sense. This is what I've been looking for. And I just kind of it was a self study for me. And that has essentially led me up to now where I would say I'm fully recovered. I'm an intuitive eater. Amazing. I'm very much in tune with my body. And it's been a journey. I don't say that it's come easily. But it's I would say it's I what I like to say to women who struggle with disordered eating or an eating disorder is that recovery is 100% possible. And there is freedom. You just have to keep fighting those fears and moving forward and trusting the process and focusing on that why, like why do you want to do this?
Katelyn:
God I really appreciate that, Katherine. It's a powerful story. There's so many questions that I have around it. Do you mind if I, if I asked you some of the things that you just mentioned?
Katherine:
Oh, 100% Yeah. And then there's a whole nother layer of how my career has played a part in all of that.
Katelyn: I want to ask you about it too. So we'll hit pause, we'll get there for sure. But I, the first thing that keeps coming up, I just feel like I have to ask it, because it just keeps coming, keeps coming up in my mind. But going back to this concept of setpoint weight. One of the things I actually don't think we've ever had a conversation like this on the podcast before, but one of the things that I that I think about a lot in terms of setpoint weight is it's important to, to provide the definition and for people to understand exactly what that is, and how to have it be a basic understanding, as you know, our bodies thermostat, and like, this is the weight that we have. But then I feel like there's this entirely other complex part of setpoint weight of, well, what if the setpoint weight isn't the body size that you like, and then having all of the body image work coming up. So for you and your case, it sounds like, because the setpoint that you were falling into was actually the weight range that you were in, during recovery and and through that whole process. And I know that you've worked with women through this as well, too. And so I'm just curious around your feedback and perspective and even being in treatment facilities with other women who are going through this as well, too. How do you feel about that conversation, how would you advise somebody to move through this part of recovery or intuitive eating with that self compassion that's needed? If the weight is outside of the range? And also the conversation of why to how to get past the fact of why is this? Why does this matter so much? And really just the weight bias around it as well, too?
Katherine:
Oh, boy, that is a loaded question.
Katelyn:
I know.
Katherine:
I mean, I was told early on you guys, and listeners probably have heard this is body image is one of the struggles with body images, one of the last things to let go of in eating disorder recovery. And I think because we live in a fat phobic world, we live in a world where a certain size is esteemed, there's so many layers, so many layers to it. And I when I was at that point where I was discovering setpoint weight, and how that applied to my life, and how I could really let go of the minute control and let my body be, I wasn't happy with my body, then. And I think even from there, my body has actually changed quite a lot. My body has changed quite a bit. But also, I was a what 21 year olds. And now I'm almost 30 So of course my body is going to change from a college student till now. But I think you know, my body was still finding it was still settling into that weight. And it was as more as I let go have control and not in like a scary way. But as I let go of control and let my body do what was what it was supposed to do. It was able to settle more into the woman that I am today and the figure that I have today. So I guess in that question of giving yourself grace, I think it really starts with and what started for me was getting in tune with my body and going deeper than my size. And that process that I went through with my knee injury was when I really started wanting to trust my body, and also to start listening to what my body was telling me besides just like hunger and fullness, really listening to those cravings, listening to what was satisfying, honoring that. That's listening to when my body needed rest or when it wanted exercise, listening to you know, I listened I have had to listen a lot to pain and how my body moves and feels and honoring that. And I think the more that I've gone internal and and learn to respect what my body does for me, and how it takes care of me and also how I want not to love my body. And like a self love way I have, I personally have let go of the trying to think of the word, let go of the not pressure, but the importance of my size, if that makes sense. And so this is something that I tell a lot of my clients and something that helped me was, especially, you know, as I started practicing more intuitive eating, when I would have those hard body image days, or just those I would see myself in the mirror or something wouldn't fit. I would stop myself. And I still do this to this day, stop myself and ask, have I listened to my body? Have I honored hunger, fullness, craving satisfaction? Have I moved in a way that felt good and energizing? Have I rested my body? How have I been taking care of myself in other ways, emotionally, mentally, socially, spiritually, all these things, looking at the big picture. And if I see if I kind of check and say, You know what I've actually like, I have been listening to my body, I have been doing my best not perfection, but I've been doing my best to take care of myself. Then I Just surrender. And I say, Okay, if my body decides it needed to change, it needed to change, because I completely surrender to the work that my body is doing inside of me. So I don't know if that answers that question.
Katelyn:
Absolutely does. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it was a pretty loaded question. And there are so many layers and directions that we can take it but I love your answer. It's really powerful, and just expresses your unique process so beautifully. So I really, I appreciate you saying that. And I'm also curious, because you've mentioned several times, listening to your body, and also just the, the impact of having this injury and your body literally telling you, hey, you have to slow down and listen. And it's crazy how sometimes life just it creates this obvious reminder for us that whether it's an injury or something that happens in a relationship, or just in life in general, like those really challenging times. It's like alright, the body is pulling out all the stops to just slow down and listen and pay attention. So what were some of the tools that you cultivated and leaned into at that time to sit with those really difficult emotions?
Katherine:
Crying? If you can, I'm not normally a crier. I'm not someone who like cries and movies and stuff like that, but I felt an intensity of emotion I remember and I just cried and cried. I'm a verbal processor. And I had a couple close confidants, you know, my mom, a couple of friends, who I could cry with who I could talk with who I can voice my fears, too. I remember voicing my fears a lot in recovery. And there's so much power and getting them out of your head. I journaled. I prayed a lot. And I had the support of a therapist and a dietitian to to kind of remind me of truth. That was something else that I that has helped me a lot is remembering truth. And you know, after a while of being at a stable weight while in recovery, and even you know, in my injury, when that fear of Oh no, have I gained weight, remembering you know what, like, my body hasn't changed in so many weeks or days, like, it's fine. It's not going to change now. Or the last time I ate this, nothing happens like I'm going to be okay. And really continually challenging those fears, those emotions and remembering the truth what I like to say when I said with my previous health coaching clients is you're you're building up a new story, you're building up new truths that are actually based in fact not in fear. This is for so long, we you know, whether it's eating disorder or disordered eating, we've built up these trues for us in our mind of if I eat this, then this is going to happen. If I you know go up in size and this is This is what happened or this is what's going to happen. But oftentimes, those aren't based in truth or reality. And so you have to really write all of those out and challenge them, and prove to yourself that they aren't true. And, and really prove to yourself that the life that you want to live is true, and is based, in fact, and I think of, you know, living that life of freedom with food and peace with your body. And what goes along with that.
Katelyn:
I love that. That's, that's so powerful. I'm noticing a through line just through your whole story of just this fear of change. And you've mentioned this a few times already, just throughout your entire experience of growing up, and whether it's moving or body image or food or things shifting. Is that something that you use still feel challenged by today? Or how do you embrace change at this point in your life? Katherine:
100%. And that's where, you know, people say, Oh, you never, you never fully let go of your eating disorder, or you never, it never fully leaves you. And I think that can be a discouraging statement just to hear, but it's just like any pattern in our life. That triggers us, that's always going to be there. But it's more about what do we do with it? And what is its presence and strength in our life? So I've realized, for me, there are triggering moments, not necessarily that would trigger me to go back to my eating disorder, full force. But there are triggers where I cause an eating disorder is a coping mechanism, that is just like any addiction is a coping mechanism. And so, you know, so I have those triggers. And one of those is change its instability, it's been an uncomfortable situation makes me more conscious of my body image and makes me want crave more control, because everything around me feels out of control. So I'm aware of that now. And I am able to set myself up for success, I'm able to give myself Grace, I'm able to cope in better ways, like whether that's stepping away from social media, or giving myself some extra self care or talking about it with my husband or a good friend, or just taking some things off my plate. A lot of it is that grace, peace and just knowing like, okay, like, it's okay to feel this way. And it's okay to not perform all the time. So that's what it's like, for me.
Katelyn:
So how has it been with COVID? And just change and the unknown and uncertainty? How have you been putting yourself through all this?
Katherine:
Oh, gosh, um, at the beginning, it was hard. It was hard. And it was a lot of uncertainty. And I mean, it still is, even though it's become more normal. I think the reality is, it can, it still can be really hard. And so I remember at the beginning, it was challenging, and I had to step away from social media, I had to kind of create a little safe bubble around myself and surround myself with positive things. And for me, like, I'm honestly not one to really watch the news much or anything like that, because to me, it just stresses me out and makes me anxious. And I don't think it's an avoiding thing, or being oblivious, like I know what's going on. But it's just, I know, my threshold.
Katelyn:
Well, that's important that you know that and also, you're, you're an HSP, highly sensitive. And a lot, a lot of people who struggle with eating disorders, disordered eating, myself included, are highly sensitive people. And we can talk about that too, if that's something that you're open with. But that's so important to recognize that, of course, because you're a highly sensitive person, you're going to take on the news in a way that that feels much deeper than then most people would. And that's not anything to be ashamed about. That's just information that's really powerful when you know that about yourself, so it makes complete sense. And that's, that's awesome that you're, you're able to recognize that and share it with everybody too.
Katherine:
Yeah, and so how am I taking care of myself now considering that honestly, I don't I don't really follow much of the news. I kind of like check in here and there every once awhile asked my husband, he can kind of be a good filter for me. But there's just so much going on in the world and I just know my capacity and I know what I personally need and I think that's something that I have learned a lot. I you know, I am in my recovery journey. I'm two on the Enneagram. So I'm a giver. Very sensitive. I'm a two one.
Katelyn:
So not sure what I am not sure what my wing is, but one is perfectionist, right? Or yeah, my husband's a one, nine. And I'm a nine.
Katherine:
I'm a two, one. Why has it been three? I can't. Yeah, I can't remember what the wings are for either of us. But I'm Yeah, I'm a two. Yeah, so I'm so I'm, you know, I take on other people's feelings, I want to help people, I want people to be happy. And I always felt bad taking care of myself. I felt like that was very selfish. But I've learned in recovery, kind of like what you were talking about, Caitlyn, that in our podcast about self care, and how self care played a huge role in your recovery. And I would say 100% That too, and giving myself that permission to take care of myself. And I would say I'm in a season right now, where I'm doing kind of essential things like work, being with my husband taking care of, you know, my husband's in law school, so I take care of a lot of things around the house. And then self care, because that's just the season that I'm in right now. And knowing that that's absolutely okay.
Katelyn:
Yeah, and I mean, that's just a testament to how far you've come in your recovery process to give yourself that permission to slow down, listen to your body, take care of yourself. And truly understand that that's actually selfless. It's not selfish, it allows you to be more impactful for the people around you. And also just nourish yourself in a way that's, that's giving you life. And, and yeah, it allows allows you to function better throughout the day to so that's amazing. Since we touched on it, can you can you go back to just your version of explaining what a highly sensitive person is. I just don't want to leave that hanging for anybody who's unclear and and thinking, Oh, what, why is that even matter with this conversation?
Katherine:
Yeah, I know, there's a whole book called The Highly Sensitive People. I have not read it but essentially, highly sensitive people, they pick up the energy around them. They're very, very perceptive. You know, if someone asked me, Oh, do you know where this is, I know where it is. Because I've just my eyeballs are everywhere, I'd probably be like a great detective in that sense, because I'm, like, so aware of everything around me. But you also pick up the energy of people around you. And so you know, one example is my husband, he's in school, he's at home studying, taking classes, I'm at home, I'm working, we have a one bedroom apartment, we're in the same space. And I can feel that intensity that he has while he's studying. And, or let's say you're with someone who is struggling years ago, and it was really little, my sister had the chickenpox. And I remember her just like laying on the couch and just, you know, being miserable. And I just felt so bad for her. And I just wanted her to be better. And that's what it feels like it to be a highly sensitive person, you just feel that the struggle or the the oppression that someone else is feeling and what What's hard is oftentimes you take that on, and it gets muddled into your thoughts, your emotions, and you really have to work on setting those boundaries. Absolutely in yourself. I'm still on it. To be honest, I am still very much working on and sometimes have to remind myself like, you know what, it's okay that he feels that way. I'm not like that's not related to me. This is just me, you know, sometimes you just need that physical separation too.
Katelyn:
Absolutely, yeah, it it's something that I mean, I'm a highly sensitive person as well, too. And just from a disordered eating, eating disorder point of view with this. I mean, it just it makes so much sense, right. And it's just an even greater example of how our body our mental wellness or emotional wellness, it's all connected. And not everybody who has disordered eating or an eating disorder is a highly sensitive person, but a lot of people are and it I mean, for me, me personally, and it sounds like you too. It makes so much sense of why there is that need to control when the emotions are just so intense and almost exhausting sometimes and yes, a lot of times actually. And it also makes complete sense of why there is perfection with all this to avoid those really uncomfortable emotions. If things are perfect, then you don't have to face that that discomfort and it's really challenging when you do face it, but you know, full circle in the conversation. This is exactly why it's so important to have really healthy coping tools for emotional regulation. Whether you're Still struggling actively right now or afterwards, you know, at any time and so I appreciate you just sharing all the things that are working for you and how you've really navigated that. It's, it's so important. You’re just amazing. I love, love this conversation so much, Katherine. And thank you again for coming on taking the time out of your day to just share so openly and vulnerably and meet this community as well too. I am so glad you're here. Thank you.
Katherine:
Thank you, Katelyn. Ah, I have I'm My cheeks are hurting right now and beaming so much. So.
Katelyn:
Well we'll talk soon.
