Episode 87: Separating Style From Self-Worth With Dacy Gillespie
Episode 87: Separating Style From Self-Worth With Dacy Gillespie
In this episode we sit down with....Dacy Gillespie.
As a personal stylist, Dacy Gillespie intuitively guides her clients to discover what they feel best in. She helps them let go of the external messages they’ve been given about what they should wear and get to the heart of what’s making them uncomfortable about their clothes. Through their work building a functional wardrobe, Dacy’s clients make a mindset shift from thinking they need to wear what’s flattering to unapologetically taking up space in the world.
After a lifetime of jobs in high-stress careers that didn’t suit her highly-sensitive, introverted personality, Dacy started mindful closet in 2013 in an attempt to create a more emotionally sustainable lifestyle. She has two boys, ages 3 and 7, and a husband she adores who is well aware of her mental load.
In this conversation we talk about:
Dacy's personal experience of body and style changes
Unpacking internalized fatphobia
How she guides her clients through the intermediate state of their body resettling into a new place for a period of time
Dacy's career transition from music to fashion and her journey of starting her own business
Practical tips for building a functional wardrobe
Connect with our guest...
Resources we mention in this episode…
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TRANSCRIPTION
Episode 87: Separating Style From Self-Worth With Dacy Gillespie
Katelyn:
Dacy Gillespie, welcome to the show. I'm so excited you're here.
Dacy:
Thanks, Katelyn. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.
Katelyn:
Let's jump in, because we have so much that we're going to talk about. I'm dying to hear your body image story and really grateful for you sharing it with us today. So the first question that we ask everyone on the show is your first body awareness moment- so what did that look like for you that moment where you realized I'm in a body, and apparently this means something in the world that I'm living in? Just share your truth- and also how that moment impacted your relationship with your body and or food moving forward?
Dacy (body image story):
Sure, well, I will, you know, before I even start, put the disclaimer that I have been privileged, that I've always enjoyed thin privilege, and that I currently enjoy some privilege, even after all the changes my body has gone through. And so part of me is naturally hesitant to take up space with my story. Because, you know, I want to save that space for people who have been in more marginalized bodies as well. But yeah, I mean, my story is that I was like, the skinny kid who got teased- people asking, like, Does your mom feed you? You know, like knobby knees, and just really skinny limbs. That was how I became aware of my body. Also something that makes a big impression on me from when I was growing up, is I'm the oldest of three girls. And so I have two younger sisters. And our family likes to eat. Like, we like to spend time talking about food, and preparing food and getting food and eating food. And it was always interesting to me, it was always something I was aware of, even early on, that my body reacted differently to food than my two sisters. And that I was able to kind of have this big appetite and be excited about food. And it was cute, because I was little and skinny. And that was not the case for everyone in my life. And so that awareness came to me pretty early. So that was kind of my body awareness in terms of the size of my body and a bit of its size in comparison to my sisters.
Katelyn:
Yeah, how did that make you feel? It's really interesting that you are looking at this from another lens, then we typically hear from guests on the show where you're comparing your sisters to your body being smaller and almost like this ability to eat more and stay a socially acceptable size, or, in your words, being cute. So how did that impact your relationship with your body and also your relationships at the time with your sisters?
Dacy:
Sure, I mean, it's stuff that I'm now unpacking, because, you know, I'm in my mid 40s, my body is really undergoing a lot of changes. And, and I'm, to be perfectly honest, uncovering a lot of internalized fatphobia that I'm embarrassed about. I will be completely open and say that I often felt like it was normal for me to feel lucky. And I did feel lucky. Knowing that I didn't have to worry about my body being acceptable. But also, to be perfectly honest, sometimes I felt superior, like I sometimes felt like, Well, you know, I'm good. I don't have to worry about things- and I have lots of uncomfortable feelings around that to be perfectly honest.
Katelyn:
Yeah. So what was your relationship with your body like moving to college and early adulthood?
Dacy:
You know, I don't think you can be a woman in this culture and not be critical of your body. I mean, I think it's so ingrained in us to be looking for things to better and change and and so definitely kind of like going into high school some of my friends were, you know, what is now really ingrained in entire culture very conscious of counting calories and back then it was more like the grams of fat and and so I kind of fell into that, almost as a way to belong. To be like, Okay, this is the thing we do, and then also criticizing my own body as a way to belong as well. Like I guess this is what we do. And that's women, you know.But truthfully, aside from those things,I really didn't have too much stress over the size of my body. I was just really lucky. And even though I was aware of that, I don't think that I was able to kind of appreciate it in a way that I'm kind of coming to terms with now.
Katelyn:
I think it's really interesting that you just mentioned the fitting in aspect in terms of criticizing your body and what you're eating. And I think that this shows up in so many areas of our culture- especially as women, and men receive this too, but particularly women, because it's been passed down for so many generations- this unwritten rule of this is what you do to bond. And it can be so uncomfortable unpacking that, and creating the awareness of why that's happening, the fact that it’s happening, recognizing that and creating boundaries to honor your relationship with your body. So I'm curious how you got to that place where you even realized that you had this internalized fatphobia, which we've talked about on the show before, but for you, how did you get to that place where you even knew that there were things to unpack? What piqued your curiosity?
Dacy:
Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting question. And something that I have been thinking about a lot lately. And the thing is that I have talked about this a bit, but I've come to the whole body trust, body neutrality, body positivity, you know these concepts, through the women that I work with. So I work as a personal stylist, I help women kind of uncover their personal style, find the clothes that make them feel the best outside of what society's expectations of them are. And I've been doing this for eight or nine years. And, again, you know, I was very privileged in that I didn't have to think too much about the way clothes fit on my body. And I didn't have to work too hard to find clothes that fit on my body. And when I started working with other women, I really wasn't aware of that kind of experience. Well actually, to a certain extent I was with my sisters, but just really being inside women's literal closets, being inside their experience, hearing them speak about their bodies, through the conversation we were having about their clothes, was mind blowing and devastating. Like, it was so sad to me, because there was no woman that I worked with who felt good about her body, and the size of her clothes. And again, it just felt like this thing that we all just had to like, flagellate ourselves for, just because, you know, how weird would it be if you were happy with your body, you know? And so, I just kept hearing the same things over and over and over and over. And was like, there's gotta be a better way. This is crazy, the amount of energy that all women are spending on this- purposely beating themselves up, it's just unreal. And so that kind of led me into exploring these concepts. I'll say, the first book that I read that really introduced me to the concept of intuitive eating was Big Girl by Kelsey Miller. I just reread it recently. It's so good. It was a great introduction to the concepts of intuitive eating and Health at Every Size. And that was years ago. And since then I've just continued to kind of broaden my knowledge of those concepts. But what's really interesting- I’m a really empathetic person and highly sensitive person, I definitely feel like I'm an empath. And so I really was feeling a lot of what my clients felt. And I definitely was able to intellectualize the reasons why- the intentional weight loss or, you know, beating themselves up about the size of their clothes. I understood intellectually why that was not healthy and not a good thing to do. But it's only been in the last couple of years that I have been personally going through the same process. And so, it's been really fascinating for me to kind of have this knowledge. I had been exposed to these ideas. And yet, I never had to put them into practice for myself until recently.
Katelyn:
Can you tell us about that? Your own process? What shifted for you? What changed that put you on this path of having to do the work yourself?
Dacy:
Yeah, I mean nothing really shifted, just that it's completely normal and healthy, of course, for women's bodies to continue changing over the course of our lives. And so my body had changed a couple of times. You know, when I was in my 30s, I was never the same size as I was in high school. I've had two children. And so there were obvious changes that happened then. But I think there was always this idea that it was acceptable to me, because there was this excuse or reason, not an excuse, but there was like, Well, I was pregnant, or I had a child or I was breastfeeding. And, and that's okay. It's okay, and normal for my body to change. And in the last couple of years, I mean, there probably are some extenuating circumstances, but really, my body is changing by no known discernible differences in my lifestyle, and just kind of coming to this acceptance that like, yeah, bodies can change, just because they get to do whatever they want. You know, they do what's best for them. And feeling a little bit of that loss of control has been really interesting.
Katelyn:
Yeah, I can imagine. I've been through that on my own journey as well, too. How do you deal with change? Do you handle change well in your life?
Dacy:
Oh, I'm terrible at it. I mean, I hate it. It's definitely not surprising. And that's something that I've definitely acknowledged and made a little bit of peace with- that I don't like changes. And this is a change. And it's something that I literally feel all the time. And so of course, that would be hard. Self-compassion helps a lot.
Katelyn:
I was just going to ask, what are some tools that you're using right now as your body is changing? And also, I just want to validate everything that you're sharing, Dacy. I really hear you. And I know how uncomfortable this is. And I also know how normal this is too- and that doesn't make it any less uncomfortable to normalize the process.
Dacy:
Yeah. I mean, I think, luckily, I've been really well equipped with all the tools that I was using, to hopefully bring a different perspective to my clients. And so I had many, many kinds of concrete things that I could do that have really helped. I mean, for me, sharing this experience and talking about it is really a way of processing it for me. And I've done some programs through Be Nourished- I’ve done some other workshops, and some of their writing exercises, and taken some of their courses. I was in an intuitive eating mentorship group over the summer with my friend, Rachel Cole. I've had clients who started book groups, to read kind of intuitive eating based books. And I've participated in those in my own little book club that I have, you know, we've read some books and every time I get to have that conversation with someone there is, you know, recognition from other women that they're not alone, or that I'm not alone. It just starts to move the process forward for me. And then there are other little things like hiding myself for you on Zoom. We spend so much time on Zoom, like, I don't need to be looking at myself all the time, you know, just being aware of body checking, moving things in my house, things like that. And then a really, really huge one, of course, which is what I've always preached is that you have to have clothes that fit your body, and you have to feel good in those and you can't deny yourself that because you deserve to have that no matter what's going on with your body.
Katelyn:
So how did your style change? Or how has it evolved through your body changing and this process? I imagine this is something that you work with clients around a lot. So being able to use the tools that you're giving them and apply it to yourself and also sit with these big emotions that are coming up for you in the process. How did you navigate all of that? The style aspect, from the normal physical and also the internal?
Dacy:
Yeah, well, I think it's important to say I'm still kind of in the middle of the process and I'm still figuring part of that out. But I have always believed, and I've always worked with my clients in a way that I feel like fashion and style has always been dictated by body sizes and shapes. And I just think that's completely backwards, I think the clothes that we want to wear have to be determined by what we like- the look or the feel. And once we can figure that out, then we can find the things that represent those things in our size, or in a way that fits our body. But I just feel like so many people have like, determined their style by just going based on Well, I was born with this shape of body, therefore I must wear this style of clothing. And I just feel like that sucks. You should be able to choose, you know. And so that's always been something that I've really practiced. And so it's the same for me. I mean, I start with what I love the look of and what I want to wear and what feels good. And then I find a way that it works for the body that I'm in right now.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. Was there a part of your body journey where you had to give up clothes?
Dacy:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
How did you navigate that? Because I imagine you have this deep love for fashion and style. And I can only imagine the pieces that you've accumulated for yourself as a form of expression. So how did you navigate that piece of just breaking up with some of the clothes that no longer fit your body and releasing?
Dacy:
Yeah, well, as I was saying earlier, like that specific part of the process is what I kept saying over and over with women. Because when I originally started my business, I really had more of a focus on minimalism, and kind of a minimalist wardrobe. And I really felt like, so many of us had these closets, full of clothes, and yet nothing to where we were kind of constantly in the cycle of buying new things, feeling dissatisfied, you know, and then just having piles of clothes that were overwhelming. And so that's really where it came to light that like, oh, okay, the reason why women are not able to let go of this stuff is because they're ashamed that they can't fit into it. And they feel as though they're a bad person, if they don't try and force themselves back into clothes that used to fit. And so that was what I worked through with a lot of clients. And so once I kind of came to the point of of figuring out my style, and the amount of clothing that worked for me, which you know, was many years ago, I have been pretty good about being able to let things go. I think one thing that we all forget is that clothing, while we want it to be quality, and we want it to be something that expresses us, it's a temporary thing, like it is always going to be a temporary thing. And that's okay. Because as women, our bodies are always changing and our style and our tastes, and our preferences are always changing, the style that's in the outside world is always changing. And then our needs for our lifestyle are always changing. You know, like, if you were a high powered lawyer in your 20s, who then stayed home with your kids in your 30s there's a lot of clothing that's just not appropriate for your lifestyle anymore. And so all of those are things that I am somewhat open to the process of interest that the temporary nature. However, that doesn't mean that there weren't things that were really beautiful that I really loved that don't fit anymore. And I have a lot of ways of thinking about it. You know, way back even before the TV show I was a big fan of Marie Kondo. And one of the things I love about her methods is that she really kind of gives physical items, the respect that they're due, and in a way, with certain pieces of clothing, I can kind of say to them, gosh, I loved wearing you, I felt so good in you. Thank you for being with me on that part of my path. And now someone else is going to enjoy you as much as I did. Or, you know, thinking like what have I learned? What can I take? I know I have to let go of this physical piece of clothing. But what did I learn from it that I want to take into future choices about my wardrobe? So a few things like that really helped me and also acknowledging that they’re great. And there's also a level of frustration of like, do I have to constantly be doing this? I'd like to be done with this.
Katelyn:
Yeah. Well, that's another question that was coming to my mind as you were talking. How do you guide your clients when they are in that in-between stage and for yourself too where you're going through the process of just letting your body settle into this next chapter of life. Because our bodies always change. And so it will probably change again, but it's not changing every single day in a way that is going to require going out and buying a whole new wardrobe. So in that intermediate state of your body kind of resettling into a new place for a period of time, how do you recommend your clients going through that? And also, how did you navigate that for yourself?
Dacy:
Sure, yeah, it's so important. And I think there are a couple of aspects. I mean, one is definitely that it is highly, highly, highly important, it's almost like a huge priority for mental health to me, that you have clothes that fit you today- whatever, wherever your body is, today, you need to have clothes that fit. Even if you're in a transitioning phase and maybe your body will be bigger or smaller in a month, it is miserable to not have clothes that fit you in the present moment. And so in whatever way you can make that happen I think it's really important. Thrift stores, cheaper stores, this is a time to, you know, relax a little bit on maybe your ethical standards or your eco awareness and just take care of yourself. I think it's truly like self care to make sure that you have clothes to fit in the moment. So that's one part of it. The other part of it is that it's just this kind of awareness that this is always a process- starting to become comfortable with this idea. In a weird way it's a good practice of knowing like, Okay, this is going to be something that's going to continue to happen. Because I just feel like in our society, we have this ideal that's been set at some point, which was, you know, whatever size you were at 21, or 25. So you have to stay there for the rest of your life. And everyone feels if they get away from that, they are wrong, and they're bad. And they have to get back to that. And that's always the goal. And so as much as we can start to shift that perspective, that changing is part of life- I think it's just good practice to kind of get used to that. And then I guess thirdly is like the practical aspects. Like, I love an elastic waist. And I love some stretchy pants, you know, like things that are going to fit your body throughout multiple sizes can be really helpful.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. Yeah, I love all of those tips. And one word that keeps coming to my mind in hearing you speak is identity. I think this is the challenging part for so many of us. Because just like you're mentioning, holding on to that belief that my body has to say the same size as it was when it was 20 or 25. You're not the only person who believes that- there are many, many people around you who also believe that as well, too. And so it's the water that we're swimming in, that becomes this cultural belief that also creates this identity that we feel like we have to lean into. And then also, the identity around letting go of clothes. I think it is so complicated as well to that person that you were when you were wearing those clothes and the stage of life that you were in or what that represented. I just love what you're bringing into this conversation in terms of shifting that mindset into the belief that our bodies are always changing, that truth that our bodies are always changing, which can feel so scary, because just like you and I both acknowledge change is terrifying sometimes. So being able to name that and anchor into it is very challenging sometimes.
Dacy:
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely hard. But you know, I guess we all get better at things as we practice them.
Katelyn:
Absolutely. I think that's the key- practicing. And it sounds like that is something that you’ve adopted for yourself and really communicated in your communities and with the clients that you work with. Also just the practice in shifting these beliefs and the mindset.
Dacy:
I love that you brought up the word identity. I think that is what a huge part of this is all about. And I'll again be kind of, embarrassingly open that Yeah, a lot of my identity has been tied up in being a smaller person, a person in a smaller body for a lot of my life. And again, not to say that I don't still benefit from thin privilege, but to have that shift personally, and to come to an understanding of like, oh, okay, I got some value from that. It's been really comfortable.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm curious within your identity work in your own body image journey- do any lightbulb moments stand out to you through your process? Things that really just shook you to the core to unpack?
Dacy:
I would say that was a big thing, just really realizing. I'm typically a half glass empty person. I mean, I'm anxious, I manage depression. And high self-esteem is not something that I'm guilty of. And so there are many parts of myself that I don't like, but it's been interesting to realize, like, Oh, that was something I could always kind of count on- my body kind of being good. And it's interesting to not feel that any longer.
Katelyn:
How do you feel now? What would you describe your relationship with your body as today?
Dacy:
Um, wow. You know, since I am still kind of working through it, I don't think I've tried to put that into words. But I think that I am really starting to see a future possibility of separating my worth from my physical appearance. I am starting to see the possibility that the value of being a woman, the wisdom of being a woman is in going through this process. I don't know if that makes any sense. But it's a life experience that almost every woman on this planet is going to go through. And I feel a sense of kinship with the rest of women. I mean, I'll be honest, too on top of the body stuff, there's a little bit of aging stuff going on as well. So yeah, it's just very interesting for me to start to see a future where my appearance doesn't dictate my value.
Katelyn:
Yeah, it's so important. And I love that you brought in aging, because I think that's a huge piece of our body image journey. And something that we don't talk about as much when we talk about body image- we tend to think it's just the size of our bodies or the ability of our body or whatnot. And I really do think that our body changing through our aging process is so valuable, and it comes with its own emotions and identity in itself as well too in detaching from that. I love that you use the word kinship, that's just so beautiful. And I think that once we can give ourselves the space and permission to detach our value and our worth from our bodies, and to seek out safe spaces where other people are doing this work and are interested in having conversations around this and just surrounding yourself with information around this process, it can give you such a deeper relationship with your body. I've certainly found that myself.
Dacy:
Yeah, definitely.
Katelyn:
I'm curious how you got into style and fashion. Is this something that you majored in when you were in college? Or did you come to it later in your life? How did you get into this work in general?
Dacy:
It's such a good question, because I think I saw somewhere in your background that you have a background in fashion, is that right?
Katelyn:
It is. Yeah.
Dacy:
So yeah, I grew up with a family that was a little bit countercultural. And so while I was lucky not to get any negative messaging about bodies or what females should strive to look like I also was given the message that caring at all about fashion or how you looked was very superficial. So a little bit backwards. A lot of my clients come to me with all of these heavy messages they were given by their mom or their dad or someone who felt like they needed to fit into a certain mold. And I was free of that. But I did get this message that caring about that means that you are silly and superficial and don't care about saving the world. But, I really have always, always, always loved clothes and fashion. It was the highlight of my year going back to school shopping. My maternal grandmother was very stylish in my eyes. And every year for my birthday, I would ask, not for a birthday present, but just to go shopping with her. And, you know, I started reading Vogue when I was 10. I was just always obsessed with clothes. But because of that messaging, I really never thought it was something that would be a viable career for me. And so I went in a different direction and had a career in music for 20 years, before I kind of allowed myself to be open to the possibility that maybe I could do something with clothes.
Katelyn:
What type of music career?
Dacy:
Well, I have a bachelor's and a master's in music performance. And I performed with orchestras for a long time. And that was classical music- very, like high pressure, single track, mind type of field. And so it didn't allow myself a lot of extracurricular interests.
Katelyn:
Yeah. I grew up performing in theater, and I went to a performing arts high school and was around a lot of musicians. And also going to an art school, it almost was like a conservatory growing up, so I really understand the level of dedication and also the toll on mental health that can take when you're so heavily invested in your craft. That level of perfectionism can really be sneaky as well, too. And so I'm curious what that looks like for you. You mentioned, you've struggled with depression before. It's something that you were battling when you were performing. What about your mental health journey?
Dacy:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, I just want to say I feel seen, thank you. The stuff you just said about musicians, and perfectionism and stuff like that. Yeah. And then what's interesting is that actually, the career shift, the impetus for my career shift was my mental health, it was not my love of fashion. And what happened was that I was like, I need to make a shift, because this is not healthy. What else have I always wanted to do? And that's when I came back to fashion. So that's just kind of a note about that. It's pretty interesting. But it was really hard. I can attribute a lot of my journey down that path to kind of like external validation, getting attention and getting praise, feeling like the good girl for achieving, while not necessarily looking at whether it was a good fit for me and my temperament, if that makes sense. So just getting a lot of information, but at the same time struggling mentally, with the pressure and the stress. It's interesting, I've never correlated this before, but it's just interesting, this idea. When I was performing, I felt like my worth was based on how good my last performance was. And so it’s interesting to correlate that with detaching our worth, from some sort of external thing, like our appearance or productivity or our achievement. And I'm highly sensitive. So I'm really sensitive to sensory overload, there was obviously a lot of sound in the music field. There was a lot of pressure that I think I took on, probably more so than other people. It was just not a good fit. And luckily, I was able to kind of slowly and gradually come to that realization and make a change.
Katelyn:
I think it's interesting that you mentioned the external worth, and this identity piece that we kind of keep coming back to in the conversation. And I often find this with clients. I certainly have found this with myself in my own journey, but it tends to overlap in a lot of areas of our life when we struggle with this in terms of our body and our relationship with our body and that identity and this level of control and perfectionism that kind of shows up in in different paths that we've gone down in our life. It’s so interesting- the reason behind it sometimes. And also, I think it's so powerful naming it and also acknowledging the pattern and working with that rather than against it. And it sounds like that is something that you really started to do just by acknowledging your mental health. And it sounds like from what you're sharing- it sounds like you've built a lot of momentum and a music career that I can only imagine, made it so difficult to walk away from, but taking the time to really step back and acknowledge what was best for you, based on how you are evolving as a person and your emotional well being and mental health and whatnot. What did that look like for you? Do you remember the day or the moment where you realized that something needed to change and that you were going to have to step away from music?
Dacy:
Yes, and no. I mean, there were several moments throughout the years. And I just want to pick up on that piece, you said- you're so intuitive about this- like having had put so much work and effort into that career, it was extremely hard to lose that identity as a musician. I mean, that was how I named myself if I had said, Hi, I'm Dacy I'm a musician. That was just my introduction to the world, you know. So, shifting away from that was incredibly hard. And then also I think when I started my business, I was 36, or 37. So, definitely, it was later in life. And I felt like I was starting over completely. So as far as that moment, I'm extremely lucky to have a really supportive partner. My husband is great. And he just wanted me to be happy. And he actually, interestingly, is also a musician. We met in music school, so he knew kind of the pressures, he knew me. He knew that they were not a good fit. And I just remember one day, I was having a conversation, and him saying, like, just quit. I mean, at this time, I wasn't performing. I was working art administration, but still, you know, working in designing programs for concerts, and I mean, essentially, he gave me permission to quit my job and try something else. And that was huge.
Katelyn:
Wow, yeah, that's amazing, and incredibly supportive. So did you know immediately that you wanted to go into fashion and style and start your own business? Or did you take some time?
Dacy:
Oh, yeah, not at all. And I will definitely remember this moment. But I've been in therapy for 15 years at this point. And I remember, through this time, when I was struggling and trying to figure out what was next, my therapist asked this question, which was huge for me- I think it was more of a validation of what I wanted to do- but it was interesting, because she said, What do people always ask for your help with? And even though I always loved fashion, and everything, having that question asked, and realizing like, wow, actually, this is something people come to me for even long before it was a business. It was always something that people sought out my opinion on, it just gave me a little bit of validity in that like, oh, okay, I actually may have something to offer in this area, it may be more than just, I love it. There may be something that I can actually do for other people.
Katelyn:
No, it's really huge. So how did you take that information that you were learning about yourself? Did you kind of brainstorm with friends or your husband? Did you just start?
Dacy:
Okay. That is such a good question. And I appreciate you asking it, because I think not enough people get down to like the nuts and bolts of like, okay, but actually, how did you start a business? Or actually, how did you figure out what to do? What I did was that I kind of came to all these realizations while I was still working a full time job in the performing arts. And so it was pre kids, luckily, because I wouldn't have had time to think about it. And so all my nights and weekends, I spent thinking- through therapy and supportive conversations with my husband, once I came to this idea that I did want to shift my career. I did want to explore whether there was a possibility for me in fashion. Then I just dove deep into like, okay, but actually what in fashion? Because let's face it, it's a huge industry. And so I did a ton of research about all the different things that I could potentially do, I read a ton of books. And what it kept coming back to, for me was this idea of just helping kind of like, you know, quote, normal women, but just kind of your everyday woman get dressed- that's what I love doing. I love seeing fashion shows, I love the artistry of it, but in my daily life, that's not what brings me meaning. And so it just generally kept coming back to like, Oh, actually, there is this little niche career within fashion of personal styling. And once I figured that out, I was kind of like, well, how can I make this happen? And then I just kind of started taking tiny baby steps- I started blogging, about fashion. And, you know I think the more momentum I gained with every little step I took it built a little more confidence. I started working with people for free and blogging about it. And then, you know, again, every time it was a positive experience, every time someone was grateful that they had changed their perspective on their body or their clothes, that gave me more confidence to keep taking the next step. And eventually, after about six months, I quit my job. And then I officially started my business. So at the time, I was like, I'm gonna do this for a year and see how it works. And it was apparent that there was a need for it, and people wanted to hire me and that it was successful with the people that I was working with. So I've been grateful to be able to do it since then.
Katelyn:
And you've built such an amazing business. I love the simplicity, and also the sustainability of it- just in how you approach fashion from a sustainable lens, but also sustainability and how style can evolve with the clients that you work with, and the messages that you really share with your community as well, too. It's great. So a question that's coming up for me right now is how do you keep a pulse on momentum and identity in this chapter of your life with your business, which is not that different than your music career? I imagine there's a lot of similarities there in terms of showing up and dedication and feedback and performing almost to a certain degree, because you are a public figure you are putting yourself out there. That's just what a business owner does, and especially in consulting, like yourself. So how do you temper that now? I feel like I can ask you this, because you've been in therapy as well, too, but how do you temper knowing when those unhealthy behaviors are coming in? And how do you support yourself during those times?
Dacy:
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I'm interpreting this question a little bit about the pressure that I might feel or that I might put on myself or feel externally? So I'll answer that, if that helps. Yeah, I mean, I have definitely struggled with that. And part of the process, you know, again, before I even left my previous field, there was a period of many years where I was just getting to know myself, you know, understanding what introversion means, understanding what highly sensitive means. Understanding what being an empath means all these things. And so while I was exploring those fields in fashion, I also was very consciously keeping in mind, okay, but which of these is going to work for me? For instance, a fashion publicist? No, no, no. Like you're on the go, you're constantly on demand, you have to be on all the time, you have to be responding in the moment. That's the kind of pressure that was akin to performing. That is not something I'm interested in. And so what was like a total bonus for this specialty that I do is that not only is it first of all it's working with, for the most part, I do small group programs, but for the most part, I work with women one on one. So there you go, like my introversion is able to be very comfortable and happy getting into really deep topics with people and not having any surface conversations. Being able to manage my schedule, and schedule clients for when I have the most energy. Again, like when I was performing, it was like I had to be on at 8pm at night and that is hard when you're like someone who likes to go to bed at 8pm. And so just kind of having the knowledge of those things about myself that I wanted to be possible in the career that I was designing. Does that make sense?
Katelyn:
Yeah, absolutely.
Dacy:
So that was a really huge part of it. And then the other part of it is that I have tried to just be honest with myself about what I want my life to look like. And while there may be some romantic ideas of being like, you know, boss, bitch, or some kind of thing like that, I don't want the hours, you know, like, I know, what I want to do, and how much I want to work. And everything kind of goes backwards from that. So that's the amount of marketing I need to do. That's the amount of clients that I have which requires a certain amount of administration and all those things are manageable to me. One thing that is very hard is staying out of comparison with other people who do what I do. Because while logically I know that my clients connect with me, because I do things the way that I do them. And because I am a person that I am, it's definitely hard to see people out there who seem like they're killing it and, you know, six figure nonsense and all that kind of stuff. And I try to detach from that. One really logistical way is I just don't follow any personal stylists on Instagram at all. I have to stick to what I know works for me, and the level that works for me. And, honestly, this comes back also to this part of this process that has been helpful for me in the body sense, it's been talking with other women. And then I have a couple of great groups of other women business owners that I talk to regularly, who can remind me when I start to kind of spin out into this, like, I'm not doing enough, they kind of bring it back down and say, but this is the intention that you have for your life and your business. And you don't have to do more than that.
Katelyn:
Yeah, God, it's so important, especially being a business owner, but honestly, for anybody who's listening, in any career path that you choose, just surround yourself with people who are really going to empower you and ground you at the same time. And when you find those people hold on to them, because it is so important. I really resonate with what you're saying, I've done a lot of deep thinking and soul searching around what my vision is for my life right now and the hours that that's going to require me to put into my business. And, you know, I think when I first started, it was very much like that grind mentality that has been taught for way too long in terms of business, and just professionalism in general. And now getting to a place where I'm prioritizing my mental health and emotional health- it sounds like you are too and really just lowering the bar a little bit and doing what I need to and, you know, raising the bar as I as I move forward, if it feels good, but just keeping that expectation in mind. It's interesting because we've been talking about the parallels between some of these ideas and you know, the field that you were in like, with performing arts- it is interesting, because corporate culture is like that as well. But even those artistic fields, you know, it always feels like you need to be doing more work, to be working harder- you need to be perfecting something or need to be practicing.
Dacy:
And now that we're speaking about it, that is a big thing for me to anchor into is to know that that's not what I wanted to do. I think that was the reason why I stopped doing that. And if I turn this business into just another thing that I have to work 24/7 on, it will not be good for me.
Katelyn:
Oh my god, I can so relate to and I'm so glad you mentioned that- it’s something that I really struggled with. And in the past few years, I be curious if you've ever struggled with this also, is just setting my hours in a day that were really arbitrary, but measuring my worth, and if I was quote unquote, doing enough during the day because I was coming out of a corporate job where I was essentially clocking in,clocking out- it was an eight hour day type of situation and so I had to take a step back at one point and I got some coaching from my own coach around this by saying like, Why are you being a bad boss right now? Like why are you being like your worst boss for yourself right now and just learning how to work smarter, not harder and meaningful work. And also just re learning life too, if that makes sense. It's really just gotten to a place where I just deeply believe- I have one life supposedly, and I want to live it really really enjoyably. And just keeping that top of mind as I go through my day, and practicing gratitude, and really tempering expectations, and just leaning into the fun of days as well, too. And one thing that I've really measured is, if it's not fun, I'm not going to do it, unless it's something that actually just has to be done. Finding that balance between the dedication to moving forward and what you are imposing as an expectation on your life. I think it's really challenging sometimes.
Dacy:
It's so hard, and it's interesting that you said that, you know, coming from the workday that you had before. And that was similar for me- I was working in arts administration at that time when I switched careers. And if you know anything about arts administration, you know that it's a nonprofit, and people are generally doing the job of three people and are overworked and underpaid. And, yeah, it was super hard to know that there's not this arbitrary schedule for the day that someone has decided. And that you have to fill all that time. And I struggle with that a lot. Because really, a lot of it has to do with motherhood. So you know, I'm being open about that for anyone who's listening or for you, if that's possible in your future. But, I mean, that takes away a lot of my capacity to work, you know what I mean, and not just actual parenting part, but the recovering from the parenting part really takes away a lot of my energy and capacity. And so it's very hard for me to feel like a worthy person. When in general, I'd say I work about two hours a day, you know. And that's what it really comes down to in terms of concentrated work. You know, there's, there's always stuff that you're kind of thinking on and doing it other times and errands that you're running. But you know, I don't think I've ever even said that out loud. So just even that, like I have shame coming up around that. But that's the phase of my life that I'm in right now. And that's what I have the capacity for. And I have to work with that. You know, and if that changes in the future, that's great. But it's not worth me being depressed, or stressed, because I'm trying to do more than I'm capable of right now.
Katelyn:
Yes, I just heard you say worthy. And I feel like that is another theme in this conversation too- worthiness in the hours that you work. Worthiness in the body that you have. Worthiness and the career that you're in- all of these arbitrary beliefs that we've created around that term. And breaking up with that. It sounds like you've done a lot of work around that for yourself and are on that continued journey. And it also sounds like it's something that you really bring into the work that you do with your clients as well, too.
Dacy:
Yeah, I'd say that's, that's kind of my lifelong thing to work on. Is that feeling of worthiness unrelated to anything that I do, or or am, you know. Because I exist, I'm worthy. I mean, it's definitely hard. I'm, you know, I'm in the process of feeling that I'm worthy, even though my body is different. I'm in the process of feeling that I'm worthy, even though I don't work eight hours a day, all those kinds of things. And yeah, and I think a lot of women need that support and validation, when it comes to their clothes, because that is something that has traditionally been really exclusionary and really made many people feel like they were unworthy. And they didn't have the body to fit into the clothes that were deemed the best, you know.
Katelyn:
So I want to talk about that, because I know that you do a lot of work with your clients around belief systems and messages that they've been taught and breaking up and dismantling messages and really getting clear on what those messages are with your clients. So I would love to learn about that and your process with that when you're working with somebody but I also would love to hear how you help somebody build a functional wardrobe. Because I think that is something that everybody in this community is definitely interested in.
Dacy:
Well, I think with the process of kind of breaking down the thought patterns and the messages you've been given, I do think it starts with the point of awareness. To be quite honest, it's so interesting, I'm sure it's very similar to the way you work with your clients. Because there's so much about working on body image or intuitive eating that is the same as the way that I work with my clients. And I, I've recently worked with a couple of clients who told me that, you know, they came from working with other personal stylists. And basically, the person just said, Here you are, I'm looking at you, and here's what you need to wear. And then, no surprise, at the end of the process, they didn't really like any of the clothes that they got. But I think sometimes people may be surprised by how much we talk about their past and their life and their relationship to clothes over the course of their life. That's the whole session for me pretty much. And so it's really important for me to ask people those stories, those questions, like the questions that you're asking on this podcast, like the questions you would ask someone about their body image, and those moments in their life where they were aware of certain aspects of it. And I do the same thing with clothes. You know, what's the first thing you remember about your clothes? You know, what was the first experience of remembering someone else's judgment of your clothes? What is the way that your mom expressed her preferences for what you should wear? You know, all those kinds of questions. And then, you know, kind of throughout phases of life, when you were a little girl, when you were in high school, when you were a young adult? And so often, a lot of stuff comes up for people that they really never thought about, or acknowledged, and just the process of doing that can make them aware that like, Oh, yeah, my mom always said that I had to hang my clothes, in outfits on matching hangers, and that I could only wear those two things together. And I've never been able to get away from that idea, or whatever. Like, that's a very benign example. Obviously, there were more cruel things that mothers have done to daughters, but you know, sometimes just acknowledging those and being aware of them, people have some big realizations. And then in terms of building a functional wardrobe, I mean, it's a big process. And I think that's part of what another message that we're given as women is that we should just know how to do this, we shouldn't know how to dress ourselves, we should be good at it, we should enjoy shopping, we should think this is all fun. And for a lot of women, that is not the case and a lot of people and then when you think that's what is expected of you and you're not able to do that, then you feel the shame, right? Because you're like, I'm not good enough. I don't know what to do, there must be something wrong with me. And just before I even talk about it, I just want to kind of put that out there that this is like a big process that you're not supposed to know how to do on your own. It's something that takes a lot of time, like breaking down and thinking about things, you know, it's not just like a known skill. Does that make sense?
Katelyn:
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Our work is really similar. It sounds like it's a lot of dismantling the rules and the messaging and creating awareness around where these even came up from. Having that information for yourself- to have that truth for yourself. And then also, the next step, which you're kind of mentioning, is redefining what is true for you and building the skills around cultivating that truth for yourself right now. Because it is a lot of skill building, like you're mentioning, especially in terms of body image and with food. And it sounds like it is with style too- just like you said, we're expected to know all this and do all this, but there is an art, there are skills and tools that are really supportive in making it easier and more manageable in everyday life and it also offers more of an opportunity for creative expression when we have them as well, too.
Dacy:
Yeah, I've had this experience with many intuitive eating dietitians and other coaches and things and it is- I love the synchronicity. But yeah, what you said is like, after you do that, then the next part is building where you want to be right? Like how you want to feel, and it's the same with your clothes. And so, for me, it's not about someone looking at you and diagnosing and analyzing and saying, well, this is what you need to wear. It's about starting with the client and saying, well, where are you in your life? What clothes make sense for you right now? What do you feel good in? What do you like the look of? And let's do a lot of work around exploring that, you know. A lot of that happens on Pinterest and with visuals and things like that. But it cannot be imposed on someone. But that's my opinion, you know. And I see my job as being the guide for the client to discover that stuff that they know, somewhere underneath all those layers of messages, and helping them kind of uncover it. And then yes, then there are practical skills, like, Okay, alright, you like this kind of look, you like this outfit, here's how we're gonna break that down into what you need to buy, here's how we're gonna go about shopping for them. Here's how to make sense of all the overwhelm of all the options out there or finding things for your body when it's always been a negative experience to try on clothes, you know, working through all those things.
Katelyn:
So that is my question on a personal level- how do you navigate the overwhelm right now, because when I was in fashion, it was not nearly as overwhelming as it is right now. This was like, right when Instagram was coming out, and nowhere near the volume of online shopping that it is today. And it's something that I'm constantly looking at in my life right now. How do you navigate that with clients just keeping it really simple, but also the freedom to shop around without feeling totally burnt out and overwhelmed in the process?
Dacy:
So it's important to do a lot of work before you even get to the process of shopping. And I think that's kind of where people jump in and feel overwhelmed. Because they haven't done the pre-work to get there. You kind of need to know that aesthetic style that you're drawn to, you need to know do you like clothes that fit close to your body? Do you like things that are loose and flowy? Do you like colors, dark colors? Do you like prints, patterns? Do you like dresses, or pants or, you know, or a little bit of both? Having some awareness. I always say for my clients, you need to have this sense of what's for you. And so when you see something that's really cute, but it's not for you, you can say Good for her, not for me, you know like the Amy Poehler quote, which is like- that looks great on that Instagram influencer. That's not for me, that's not my style. And so that for me starts with style inspiration with building a Pinterest board. And getting kind of a sense of the things that you constantly are drawn to over and over visually. And so that's the starting point. And then you have to do a little bit of an inventory of what you already have. And see which things maybe don't align with that. And then maybe there are things that you need to create that look that are missing, you need to make a shopping list, you need to be very specific and very intentional about what it is you're looking for. So in terms of answering your question, the only way to cut through the overwhelm is to be very specific about knowing what you're looking for, and filter out the rest. For instance, many people will say, Well, I need to go shopping, because I need clothes for work. And so they will go shopping with the intention of finding clothes for work. And I put that kind of mental in quotes, like clothes for work, because that's not a thing. How are you going to know what you're looking for? You need to say, Actually, do I need tops? Do you need bottoms? And let's say we're going to find tops, how do you want the sleeve to look? Do you want a printer or pattern? Do you want it to fit close to your body? Do you want the neckline to be V or scoop? You know, what fabric content do you want? Do you want it to be machine washable? All of these things. And so you can see once you kind of narrow down the field. By going through all those criteria, there's actually quite a few things that fit into your parameters. And then you can kind of make a choice from those.
Katelyn:
I think that's such a great tool to get really specific and really honest. And also, that probably cuts out so much of the unnecessary mental energy and just the rumination around trying to figure all that out and the scrolling. And the mental energy running in the background of the mind to figure those things out as well too. Bringing it back to body changing and shopping and also creating less overwhelm in this process- are there any tools or skills or pieces of advice that you would offer when your body is in that point of change, but you do want to be specific and less overwhelmed and you aren't really sure about the sizes and you don't want to have like 20 boxes stacked in your bedroom. Is that something that you just kind of grin and bare or are there other ways?
Dacy:
Yeah, you grin and bare it. Yeah, I mean, so I'm glad that phrase came up in your question, because I think one thing that people, again, expect. And it's again, shifting these expectations that you should be able to go online, figure out your size, order something, it should be sent to your house, and it works. And I like to tell my clients 10% of what you try on, it's going to work for you. Because, you know, manufacturers are rolling things out on factory lines to fit the average of as many possible people- like they're not making things to fit your body, they're making things that will cover as many different bodies because they just want to sell, they just want to sell things. And the more people that fits approximately, the more sales they can make. And so, in that example, if we were talking about work tops, and you decided exactly what all the parameters are, that you need for that top, you're going to still need to order five or six versions of it to find which one is going to work for you. And if your body is changing, and even if it's not, because unfortunately, thanks to the patriarchy, one of the things that they keep us busy is the fact that standardized sizing is nowhere to be found. And so in every store often you're a different size in different items. And so we're constantly guessing, we're constantly not sure, we're constantly feeling bad if we don't fit into a size that we think we should. And so the only way for me to kind of frame that is that this is just a messed up system. And none of it has anything to do with you. I mean, the fashion industry has got many, many, many issues. And so just knowing that it's all about making money and capitalism and, and knowing that it has nothing to do with the shape or size of your body, and trying to work within that unfortunate system as much as possible. And so my advice is always to take your measurements- try and be neutral about your measurements, try to look at your measurements as a tool for finding clothes that will make you feel good. Try not to assign morality to the numbers. And then using those measurements to check the size guides for brands when it's possible. And while you're doing that, knowing that that's never going to be exactly right. And so ordering a couple of sizes, and knowing when the 20 boxes come to your room, that it's going to be normal for you to try 50 things and to have one or two work. And I just think too many of us are devastated when that happens. Because we feel like the expectation is whatever we try should work. And that's just not the case for anyone, right?
Katelyn:
I mean, I don't think anybody has that experience of every time I order something, I love it and it fits exactly like I hoped it would. It's just one of the downfalls of online shopping and capitalism. And one of the things, Dacy, that you're mentioning that I think is really important to mention is this system of this and that this is a capitalistic system that we are attaching our worthiness to, and this is also where we can really see a lot of parallels between diet culture and the fashion industry as well, too. Because we're attaching our worthiness to our clothing pieces, which are really rooted in a system, it has nothing to do with the emotion. Not to say that those pieces can't bring you emotions through the experiences, but it really is the foundation is systemic. And then diet culture is the same way too- being sold that your body has to say a certain size based on these companies who are making billions of dollars off of selling you that message generation to generation. It's messy, it's tangley. And I think being able to name when our worthiness is wrapped up in this and going a level deeper into what we’ve attached to a system- asking am I willing to attach my worthiness to a system? And really recreating a belief around that for ourselves is so important.
Dacy:
Yeah, thank you for that comparison, it is so connected. And you know, diet culture is all about, here's the thing that's going to make your life better. Here's the thing, and if you just buy this thing, and if you just buy this program and fashion is the same way, you know, and that's why I really want people to start from a place of what they need without listening to those external marketing, advertising messages, because that's always going to be telling you that you're not okay. That you need something new and different and better. And that this will be the thing that will make you feel good about yourself. And none of that is ever true and it has to start from inside. And it's tough.
Katelyn:
Yeah, it's really hard. It's so important though. I'm glad we're talking about it. Okay, before you go, because I know we're coming up on time. Where do you like to shop? What are your favorite places that you personally like to shop at and for your community? What are brands or online retailers that you often recommend that are really great shopping places and experiences?
Dacy:
Well, that is such a hard question because it is so dependent on someone's aesthetic style, and their body size, and all kinds of different things. And for myself, I'm super duper freakin picky. Like it's really hard, which I think is a good thing. Because we were talking before about like, it would be odd if everything you ordered came to you and you liked it. And what I would say about that is that would tell me that someone's not being picky enough, that would tell me that they're keeping clothes and paying money for clothes that they actually are not going to wear and don't really like that much, because that's just not possible. So for me, I definitely love some of my ethical retailers. I do sew some of my own clothes, which is extremely frustrating and a pain in the butt. But sometimes that's what it takes. For clients, I definitely love making the process online as simple as possible. And so I love retailers where we can get a wide variety of things all from one place. So I do a lot through Nordstrom, because they have a wide range of sizes. And they have a wide range of styles. Also, Zappos is a place that most people just kind of connect with shoes, but they also have clothes. And looking for places that are easy to return to make that process of trying things on and returning them easier, because the reality is you're gonna do a lot of returns. And then, you know, I love brands like Universal Standard, you know, places that have size inclusivity is really important. I love Eileen Fisher, that’s a company that has a lot of size inclusivity, and also very high ethical standards. Yeah, lots of places and for myself, I often will be looking for a specific thing. And wherever I find that thing, that's where I'm going to buy it, you know, I'm not so picky about where it comes from. But I know if I've thought about the parameters of the item that I want to buy. And if I find something that ticks those boxes, that means I'm more likely to wear it. And so I'm less concerned about where it came from.
Katelyn:
Love that. Well, thank you so much, Dacy, I could keep talking to you but I want to be mindful of our time. And you just showed up and gave so much value and so much truth. I really appreciate you spending time with us today. Where can everybody find you? I would love to give you some time to share anything that you have coming up or how people can easily get connected with you.
Dacy:
Yeah, so you can find me online, my website is mindfulcloset.com and I'm on Instagram @mindfulcloset. I'm always taking new one-on-one clients. And then just twice a year, I run a small group program called Making Space. And it's actually going to be launching at the end of September and the course will be starting in October. So that's something that's coming up for me and it’s always a super meaningful experience to have a small group of women kind of going through this process together being open and vulnerable. And again, feeling that support and also the shared experience that they're all kind of having similar feelings, I love it. It's so fun.
Katelyn:
Amazing. We will link everything in the show notes to keep it super simple. But thank you so much for spending time with us and your truth. I really appreciate it.
Dacy:
Thank you so much for having me Katelyn. It was totally my pleasure. I loved talking to you and I loved all of the performing arts stuff that came in, that was really great.
Katelyn:
Definitely.