Episode 074 Kailey Kornhauser & Marley Blonsky: All Bodies On Bikes
Episode 074 Kailey Kornhauser & Marley Blonsky: All Bodies On Bikes
In this episode we sit down with....Kailey Kornhauser & Marley Blonsky.
Kailey Kornhauser is a PhD Candidate in Forest Ecosystems and Society at Oregon State University, the Coordinator of the Oregon Central Coast Forest Collaborative, and an advocate for body size inclusivity in bicycling. Her writing has previously been featured in Bicycling Magazine, Bikepacking.com, and Get Rad Be Radical Magazine. She was recently featured in the Shimano film “All Bodies on Bikes” where she shared her story of being a fat person who rides bikes.
Marley Blonsky is a fat adventure cyclist, dog mom, and advocate for inclusion in the outdoor industry. Marley loves nothing more than getting more butts onto bikes! She can often be found leading group rides and camping trips in Seattle, where she currently lives. Marley just quit her full-time corporate job to start doing this work full time! Marley is currently sponsored by Shimano, Pearl Izumi, Breezer Bikes, and The Pro's Closet.
In this conversation we talk about:
Kailey and Marley’s personal body image stories- living against the stigma of a larger body being a bad thing
The story of how they met, the powerful work they now do together, and making the film "All Bodies On Bikes"
The biking community and how they each got into biking
Their individual processes with self-acceptance of living in a fat body
How to approach movement joyfully
Advice for navigating emotional barriers of biking in a larger body
Connect with Kailey...
Connect with Marley...
IG: @marleyblonsky
Twitter: @Marley Blonsky
Resources we mention in this episode…
Ready to heal your relationship with food + body?
Book your FREE Body Trust Breakthrough Consult
Grab your FREE Intuitive Eating Workshop
Get weekly email support from me to help you heal your relationship with food + body image
TRANSCRIPTION
Episode 074 Kailey Kornhauser & Marley Blonsky: All Bodies On Bikes
Katelyn:
All right, Kailey Kornhauser and Marley Blonsky, two incredible women on the podcast today. I have been on pins and needles, waiting to have this conversation and meeting the both of you. So hi, and thanks for being here today.
Kailey + Marley:
Hello. Thank you so much for having us.
Katelyn:
Of course, of course. So for everyone listening, we have so much that we're going to get into today. And this is the first podcast where we've had two people on the show. So for everybody tuning in, this is a really cool next chapter in this podcast. And let's just trust that it goes where it needs to- having more bodies in one space today. And so what we're going to do is start out with Marley's story, and then we'll transition into Kailey's. So, hey, Marley.
Marley:
Hey, Katelyn.
Katelyn:
All right, let's do it, love- share your story. The first question that we ask everyone is your first body awareness moment. So that moment where you realized I'm in a body, this means something in the world that I'm living in- how did that impact you? And also, how did that impact your relationship with your body moving forward and or food?
Marley(body image story):
Sure. So first of all, just so excited that you're doing this podcast, and really thrilled that this conversation is getting the attention that it's getting, you know, the Health At Every Size movement and intuitive eating. I think my first body awareness moment came when I was five or six years old, in like, first grade. We were all sitting around on the floor. And I've always been bigger than everyone else. And I think one of my friends said something like, Oh, I weigh like 45 pounds. And I think at that point, I was like 70 or 80 pounds. And I said it, not knowing that it was something to be afraid of. She laughed at me and was like, Oh my gosh, you weigh so much. And you know, I don't know how many years later, I'm 35 now, so almost 30 years later, like that still sticks with me and stings. And that kind of stigma of being larger and having that be a bad thing really carried with me throughout my childhood and teen years. You know, going to the doctor, I had a sister who was two years older than me. And I don't know if other siblings did this. You know, in retrospect, it feels a little weird. But we'd always go to doctor's appointments together and get weighed at the same time. And I remember always being embarrassed, like, even though she was two years older than me and taller than me, I weighed more than her. Even though you know, I was a super active kid. And my parents never said anything about it. There was never any problems with my weight. You know, I did a lot of sports- swimming, volleyball, I played soccer, but I still remember being embarrassed about it. And it got to a point when I was probably 13 or 14 when I stopped letting my parents go to the doctor with me. Because I didn't want them to see my weight. I was just so embarrassed of it. And so that really influenced my high school years and into my college years. When I started restricting my eating. I remember going to Costco- I had my parents Costco card- you used to be able to do that back in the day, and buying like the Costco sized cases of SlimFast. And hiding that in the trunk of my car. And taking those for lunch at school. And it became really problematic because I was a lifeguard, I was on the swim team, and I just wasn't fueling my body properly. You know, long story short, I'm an adult now, probably five or six years ago, I got into bicycling and realized that my body is strong. I also was doing CrossFit and like powerlifting at the time. And realize that like no like this, this body is fat, but it's also muscular. It's also awesome. And yeah, it's kind of snowballed from there. When I was riding bikes, I started getting frustrated because I couldn't find a rain jacket that fit. I couldn't find bicycle shorts with the padding that fit properly. And I've never been a person that feels okay with just the status quo. So I started doing advocacy work, and it started out on Twitter honestly like tweeting angry tweets at these bike companies. And that wasn't necessarily the most effective form of communication. And then I eventually started writing a blog. Just about My adventures with bike camping and backpacking and adventure cycling. And that started getting an audience. From there, you know, Instagram kind of became a bigger thing, I guess, five or six years ago, and I started gaining an audience. It's, you know, I didn't think it was a big deal that I was a fat woman riding a bike, and going on all these really cool adventures, but people started asking me questions like, Well, where do you find clothing? What shorts are those? What kind of bike are you riding, and I kind of had this lightbulb moment of, Hey, I have this valuable experience that other people in larger bodies could benefit from, I should share my story, but also continue to advocate so that people can benefit from the crap that I've gone through. So I kept doing this advocacy work. At that point, I met Kailey, she was riding her bike across Alaska. And I found her on Instagram, and I reached out to her, and kind of the rest is history. So that's where we pick up with Kaileys story, I think, cool.
Katelyn:
I love your story, Marley, that's incredible. I am curious, when you said about five or six years ago, you had this moment of, it sounds like, turning the tide where you just started to accept your body and really embrace what it could do. And it sounds like you've always been super active as well, too. So I'm curious, what do you feel like facilitated that moment for you, where you were able to give yourself permission to just start accepting your body and really using it as a vehicle to move through this world and enjoy movement that really lit up your soul? Was it a community that gave you the opportunity to do that? Or was it anybody that you were just in communication with? A book you read?
Marley:
It was a couple different things. So it was a community. So I ride bikes with a lot of really awesome, basically, non cisgender, males, lots of different gender identities within their eye, it feels exclusive to call them women, but a bunch of rad women, essentially in Seattle, and for my must have been my 30th or my 31st. My short term memory is really bad. I organized a trip to Oregon, a bike packing trip and just kind of sent out an open invitation. And like 25 different folks showed up. And there is a bike shop owner in Portland, who has since moved on. Her name is Leah Benson. But she was making these stickers, and kind of this campaign that said With This Size, and that really kind of sparked something in me of like, oh, other people who are in smaller bodies also struggle with this, like, it's not just a bigger person thing, I should really embrace this. And then, you know, leading my 25 friends on this pretty hard trip, it was 60 miles of gravel, we camped out for a night. And just really seeing the delight in their faces and seeing the success that they felt after achieving this. And also the success that I felt after leading them on this made me realize that like, Oh, my contributions are valuable, I am qualified to ride a bike in this way I am qualified to lead my friends in this way. It doesn't matter what my body looks like, because my body is strong. And it took me up those stupid hills. And then it also took me back down those hills in a really fun and fast way. So I think that was really the moment for me.
Katelyn:
What was the process like getting out of diet culture? Because from everything that you shared in your story, it sounds like from a pretty early age, you were really steeped in it. And it sounds like this kind of snowball effect where it was kind of pulling you back until you hit this moment of self acceptance with your body. So was it this like ripping the band aid off where you just had that freedom essentially to dismantle it? Or was it a process of kind of unraveling and unpacking? What did it look like for you?
Marley:
It's still a constant process- I'm sure you know. There was a time when I was oh gosh, maybe 26 when I got put on a migraine medication called Topamax. And I don't know if other folks have been on it, but it can cause pretty drastic weight loss as one of the side effects. And so I lost like 50 to 60 pounds, which I'd never lost weight before in my life. And then once I stopped taking it, I gained it all right back and so I had all these thoughts in my head of like, Oh my God, is my body still worthy? And that was a point where it was like okay, no, I'm not going to get steeped in you know, restrictive eating or counting my calories. I'm going to eat what feels good to me. What makes my body feel good. What fuels me and at that point, I wasn't really riding bikes, but I was starting to get into exercise, or like CrossFit type things. But yeah, basically, it was like around that point where I'd gotten off the medication and realize that like, hey, my body is going to change and do things, kind of, regardless of what I try and make it do and that there's way more to this life, then I'm having my waist size, be a certain size. But I still, you know, struggle with it and question it. And you know, you go to Costco, sorry, I said Costco twice, three times now. Up there. Yeah. It's like I was just there the other day, and it's like, everything is now like, keto branding. I'm like, I just want some cookies.
Katelyn:
I've noticed that too- that's weird that you said that. Because I don't think I've ever talked to anybody about that. But yeah, everything at Costco is keto, and it's really, it's just so frustrating.
Marley:
So for me, it's just about, you know, eating what fuels my body to do the bike rides that I want to do. And obviously, what makes my belly feel good, you know, I'm learning that I'm probably a little lactose intolerant. And I really, really love ice cream. I have two ice cream tattoos actually. So like, how do I reconcile that. But also a lot of just learning from way smarter people, you know, Aubrey Gordon- Your Fat Friend. And just reading the work that people have done in this space has really made me critically examine my own kind of thoughts and stuff in this space.
Katelyn:
Yeah, so cool. It sounds like it's been a really beautiful symphony of the recognition of how much mental space trying to control your body was taking up and what that was causing you to sacrifice in your life, as well as the performance aspect of not being able to really step into your power with all the ways that you really enjoy moving your body as well as the educational component of the communities that you were starting to really advocate for, as well as just feel inspired. Am I hearing you correctly with all that?
Marley:
Yeah, that's totally correct. And even when the film came out, we got to see many, many versions of it before it was released. And I probably watched it 30 or 40 times on my own, just to desensitize myself to what my body looked like, you know, those end scenes where we are in just our cycling bibs and sports bras jumping into the ocean, when I first saw that I really didn't like the way that my body looked. And I had a lot of shame and feelings around that. And now I see that and the feedback that I've gotten from, honestly thousands of people around the world saying, Oh, my gosh, you look so strong, and so powerful, and so happy and so joyful- that has really helped me turn off those negative messages in my head, and release everything about that scene, because that's what I was feeling. I was feeling proud, I was feeling joyful. I was feeling relieved to be at the end of this trip. And I was feeling excited. But then when I saw it for the first time, and probably the second and the 20th. And the 25th. I was like, Oh, I jiggle in funny places. Like I didn't know that my body moved like that, like, that's embarrassing. So it's still a process that I'm working on. And that's part of the reason why I continue to do the work that I do. Because I think a lot of us struggle with these internal narratives. Or, you know, I take a photo of myself in a bikini and I'm like, Nope, I'm posting it because I look damn good. So, yeah.
Katelyn:
I love that exercise that you just said- I'm a big fan of exposure therapy, as well as just the habituation process and desensitizing ourselves to things to really look at it from a neutral standpoint. And so the fact that you know, I love that you're being so vulnerable and sharing that even making a movie like this and going through your own journey and all the advocacy work that you're doing, you still have moments where it's uncomfortable, like watching your body or watching yourself change. And I also appreciate that you had that awareness moment to where it's, yes, it's stigmatized bodies, but at the same time, it's all bodies and just the push pull that we feel in this culture of our body's changing in a culture that is telling us not to change. And that's so challenging for people in marginalized bodies especially but for so many people in general. So I appreciate your own story in sharing this and also this practice that you went through to get to this place of being able to really celebrate your body and the work that you've done.
Marley:
Thank you. I really just hope that some child, you know, maybe a 10 year old girl sees our film and sees me and Kailey in our fat bodies and says, Hey, I look like that. I could do that, like, Oh, that looks like fun. And, you know, I think it's super rad that other you know, grown women and grown folks are seeing our film and getting inspired. But if I would have had a role model, when I was a kid in a larger body that wasn't trying to lose weight, or being shamed for being fat, you know, I remember watching the show All That and the joke characters were always the fat ones. And then, like, the fat people were always the butt of the jokes. And I can't recall any media examples where the fat people were strong or resilient, or the heroes or shown being strong. And if I can be that to a kid or a teenager, I would be so happy.
Katelyn:
I felt that when I watched your film, and it was honestly one of those moments where I watched it and afterwards I mean, I cried, of course through it, because it's so inspiring. You guys are just awesome. And then I, of course, sent it to all of my clients, put it in my newsletter, shared it with all my friends and family. The way that it's captured is- it’s this resiliency and this strength and this inspiration for all bodies. And it's so cool. It's so amazing. And I want to get to the film, more in depth in this conversation as well, too. Because I also have a lot of questions around that. But Kailey's what’s your story?
Marley:
I've been talking a lot. I was gonna say…
Katelyn:
No, no, no, you don't have to apologize for talking up space. Your story is incredible. And I want to hear how it weaves together. So, Kailey, let's turn it over to you. And if, if you don't mind sharing your first body awareness moment, I'd love to hear and have you take up space. What did that moment look like for you? How did it shape your relationship with yourself and your body and/or food? Share your body image story.
Kailey (body image story):
Yeah, gosh, it's been great listening to both of you. I resonate so much with what’s already been said. It's interesting, when I think about my, like a first memory of body awareness. I can't really pinpoint one specific moment. And I feel like it's one of those instances where you know, your brain is like trying to protect you from a difficult memory. I can remember lots of times that I was aware of my body at a really young age, like the story Marley shared of sitting on the ground in the classroom and elementary school like something so similar to that happened to me, or like being in the pediatricians office and seeing that chart about weight and what the average weight was, and where I was at, which was always above that average line. And, like, from a very young age, not being able to find clothes that fit the trends. I was like, very quickly out of the junior sizes, and I was like, keenly aware all the time of my body, but it wasn't unawareness, I guess I feel like awareness came way later, it was just like, well, in some ways, it was aware, it was like negatively awareness of my body all the time. Consuming me, taking up space- we spoke earlier about like, just not being able to do anything else. Because the mental load of being aware of your body size is like taking up all of your capacity. And that really speaks to my experience. I felt like I was just constantly thinking about my body size. I remember like, anytime we'd have to do something in gym class like cardiovascular workout, and my face would get red I would just be so embarrassed which looking back like I think a lot of people's faces get red when they run or you know, regardless of body size, but I just would attribute if I was sweating it was because I was fat. If I had a red face it was because I was fat. Like anything physical I didn't like about myself, or people didn't like me, you know if I had a crush on someone and they didn't reciprocate it was because I'm fat. I blamed everything I didn't like about what was going on on my body for a really long time. And I think that, I would say it was like one of the big themes of my life. I guess in the film, something that was cut out that I did share was that at a young age my mom went to Weight Watchers and had to take me with her. I think, because we didn't have someone to watch me and my dad was at work, but you know, they put me on the scale. And I went through the whole, like, keeping count of your points in a journal, and we're like, going to the grocery store, probably in like fifth grade and picking out like the dessert’s that were certain points of food. So I felt like that was probably my intro to dieting, which just continued on from there, thinking every time about like, what that meant for my body size, in a pretty unhealthy way. And then, you know, I got to college. And I thought that my body size was going to limit me in all these ways, but it ended up not really being the way. Like the way high school had gone, where I felt keenly aware of my body in it that people did or didn't like me based on my body size. But in college, it was so different. I started leading outdoor trips, like skiing, rock climbing, backpacking. And I was often the largest person on any of the trips that I was leading, often the slowest person in the group. But there, I was, like I was the guide. And so that was a really pivotal shift for me, because I realized, like, even if I'm the largest, or the slowest at these physical activities that I love doing, I'm still the leader, and I'm still the expert in this space. So it kind of changed my perspective from being like, Oh, I'm limited by my body. And I wish it was smaller to realize like, Oh, I actually can be a leader, even leading from the back, even if I'm not as technically skilled as some of the people on my trips. And I started thinking that way, but I still was always trying to make my body smaller, still aware of the fact that like the backpacking straps cut into my body, the ski pants didn't fit, you know, all that type of thing and was still actively trying to diet and lose weight. When I did a master's degree right after my undergrad degree, it had a heavy focus on creative writing. And it was around that time that I started seriously getting into riding my bike. And I started writing, for the first time about being fat, it was the first time I ever wrote it down. The first time I ever admitted that I was a person in a larger body, and that wasn't going to probably change. And the first time I wrote something and shared it publicly with my cohort in my program, which was you know, less there was a small program, so about 10 people, it was just, there was a huge sense of relief for me to share this story about what it was like to ride my bike as a fat person. And the people in my cohort just responded positively. And had all of these like amazing things to say. And it wasn't like the typical things I thought they would say, I thought they're gonna be like, you're not fat, or like, Oh, don't don't call yourself that. Instead they were like, Wow, thank you for sharing your personal story. And they were connecting with me about how they live in their own bodies. And so that I think, I mean, that was a really big moment, because from then on, I started writing about being a fat person and writing about being a fat person who rides bikes, and that seemed to resonate with others. I wrote an article that ended up on the cover of Bicycling magazine. And it's funny Marley talking about watching the video and like having to kind of desensitize yourself like, as I watched as I saw the picture on the cover, like you can see the outline of my stomach and my shirt and my bike shorts. And I was like, Oh, no, like, it's not a flattering picture, you know, flattering with air quotes, like people might see my stomach, which is the entire point of the article and yet I was still a little bit like, Wow, that is scary to have out there. But over time, I guess I got desensitized. And then to connect it back to Marley. When I was biking in Alaska I biked from the south part of the state of Alaska from south to north. And I was halfway through the trip. And I'd been thinking a lot about body size and about how I would write and reflect on the trip related to my body size, and I started realizing like, wow, I have been, even though I had already been writing for a couple years about my body, I was still doing it kind of from a negative headspace. And on that trip, I finally started realizing like, Wow, my body got me across Alaska, like, this is a really hard bike ride, and my body's doing it pedal stroke by pedal stroke. That was when I really started realizing like, my body is powerful, like, I'm proud of what my body does. Around that same time, I had significantly started restricting what I was eating and exercising to an extreme amount. And I ended up in a nutritionist office who happened to be a Health at Every Size nutritionist. And I think she saved my life, or at least made it a lot better. She got me into a Body Trust group therapy with a wonderful group of people. I spent a year meeting with them, and it changed everything. So I was kind of learning to love my body through biking and learning to be proud of my body on the bike. But then I was also relearning how to approach eating and that's sort of the center of like, what I think a lot of the advocacy work Marley and I do is like how to approach movement joyfully. And so I think that I was in the right headspace when Marley reached out, because we'd both been doing our own advocacy work and writing and talking about these things. But it was like the perfect time because I had just gone through those group therapy sessions, and then just completed this bike ride where all of a sudden, I wasn't thinking like, how is my body holding me back, but how is my body helping me do these things I love doing?
Katelyn:
I just want to make sure I'm getting the story straight, Kailey- so you went through the therapy, and then you rode your bike through Alaska, or you were riding your bike and and then did the therapy afterwards?
Kailey:
I did the therapy right before. I was only significantly restricting my eating for about six months prior to the trip- six months prior to therapy. And then the therapy came and then I went for the trip.
Katelyn:
So it was all pretty rapid.
Kailey:
Yeah. And I knew I was going on the trip while I was in therapy. And so I was thinking, like, in the therapy sessions pretty intentionally about how I was going to approach biking differently than I had before.
Katelyn:
That's amazing. What prompted you to reach out to your nutritionist in the first place?
Kailey:
Well, I got really lucky I went to a gynecologist at the school. I'm a PhD student at Oregon State University. And I just went for a regular checkup. And at the appointment, I told the doctor that I had been really restricting calorie intake to like, a dangerously low level and for a long time at that point, and I told them you know, I've been restricting my eating and working out a lot and I'm not losing weight, like what's going on? And she said, you know, how about you go see this nutritionist, knowing like full well that the nutritionist was a Health at Every Size nutritionist, not going to help me figure out how to diet but how to rethink about food and movement. And so she kind of hid that fact from me and I signed up right away thinking like, Oh, this person is going to help me, you know, figure out how to lose weight better. And then surprise- that was not what, what it was.
Katelyn:
Oh my god, Kailey. So your gynecologist, like, that was another angel in your life at that point, too.
Kailey:
Yeah, I mean, she redirected me and she didn't say anything about what I had been eating or doing. No judgmental comments. Nothing. Just like, you know, you should go see this person. And yeah, I mean, just the fact that it was school care. You know, both of those people worked through the university. So it's a free service available to any student. I mean, it's like it's life changing.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. That is incredible. I also am curious, because if I'm hearing your story accurately, this is also the point where you've been comfortable using fat as a descriptor and writing about that. And so there's the dissonance, it sounds like around embodying that and really embracing that not just with yourself, but on a public platform, as well as the really intense desire to still manipulate your body.
Kailey:
Absolutely, yeah, I had already been writing about being fat and biking for a couple years, there was a distinct change. I had moved to a new place, right before I started restricting food, and my dad was very sick. And part of his treatment was that he couldn't eat food for four months, and was on a feeding tube. And so I had gone home at that time, and that had really messed with my perception of food and eating. And so I think those things triggered a more extreme, restricted eating for me than I had experienced before. But yeah, I mean, the the fact is, like, I had accepted the word fat as an identifier and accepted that I was going to be in a larger body, but the numbers on the scale were going up, and I had set an artificial amount that my weight was supposed to be. And I needed to be a fat person of that specific weight, not anything above it. And so it was like, it was okay, if I was fat, but I couldn't be fatter. And I think I had to do a lot of work through some of the resources that Marley’s mentioned already to to unlearn my own fat phobia, even after I had accepted.
Katelyn:
What stands out to you? Is there any specific resource or any lightbulb moment that you feel like were a touchpoint for really being able to embrace that for yourself?
Kailey:
Yeah, I think following Your Fat Friend, the Instagram account that Marley's already mentioned, was big for me. Also, following groups, like Unlikely Hikers, and seeing other people in larger bodies, doing outdoor recreation, and bodies my size- smaller, larger than me, you know, that helped to but I do think the nutritionist specifically was like, Well, why are you so fixated on that number? What's wrong with you, if you are above that weight? That kind of was a paradigm shift for me, because everything was about numbers when I was really fixated. And, and so changing it, you know, getting rid of the scale. And, and realizing, you know, my body is facilitating the things that bring me joy. And so it was like a total reframe, but certainly the hard work of all of these activists and an organizers is was really what changed my perspective.
Katelyn:
Sure. Yeah. So it sounds like a lot of support and, and a lot of intention. And I also really appreciate you being so transparent in your story, with everything that was going on at that time, too, because it's just another powerful example about how this so often has very little to do with food, or with our bodies and more so about control. And when things feel out of control in our lives. It's going back to trying to keep ourselves safe, and the only way that we've known how to for so long. I really appreciate you bringing that into your story as well. So you do this incredible ride through Alaska, which is on my bucket list. And when do you meet Marley?
Kailey:
Well, Marley reached out- or one of us slid into the others DM. I think we've been following each other for a while before that, but uh, Marley was presenting-I don't want to tell your story, Marley.
Marley:
But it's fun to hear.
Kailey:
Sure. Marley was presenting at what's called the Women Trans Femme Bike Explore Summit. And the organization changed its name now to Radical Adventure Riders, but they've put together these annual summits where people could share workshops and trainings on how to make a more inclusive and diverse cycling community. And I saw that Marley was talking about body size at one of those summits, it was the first time I'd heard someone in the biking space talk about that. And I was really looking and searching for a community, I live in a pretty small town in Oregon. And, I don't have a great biking community here of people that can make me feel like I'm included. And so I was searching for that online. And Marley was like, the first person I found that had shared so much of a similar, you know, not the exact same but a really similar experience. And like doing the type of biking that I like doing and, we just connected and became pretty fast friends online. And then the following year, we had the opportunity to present again, on body size at the next summit in 2019. And that was the first time meeting in person. And from that summit, we have not stopped working together and doing workshops and talks and interviews and the film. And really, it's been just a wonderful friendship and partnership for the last few years.
Katelyn:
I love it. And I'm so curious, because I can just like feel this spark and this synergy in the story when you guys meet and start working together. So what were some of the themes? And I guess, what are some of the themes that really have inspired your workshops? What are the main messages that you both are really adamant about putting out there together in the work that you're doing, and the workshops and just the importance of, of your work? And Marley if you want to take that go for it.
Marley:
Sure, I think we can both contribute. So we do workshops to different audiences aimed at people in larger bodies, getting them onto bicycles, or back on the bicycles. We do them for the bike industry and the outdoor industry for how to be better to people in larger bodies. So I think we can talk about the themes in both of those. But I think for people in larger bodies, one of the primary messages we're trying to get across is, you don't need to wait for anything, like whatever size you are at today. We would love to encourage and inspire you to get on a bicycle, there is a bike for you, it might take some searching, you know whether it's an electric bike, or a tricycle or a road bike, whatever kind of riding you want to do, we're here to help guide you to that. So that's what our workshops for people in larger bodies focus on- bike selection and confidence and fit. And that's probably my favorite conversation- talking to folks and helping solve challenges and then hearing their success stories. Kailey, do you have anything to add to that?
Kailey:
No, I think that that covered it.
Katelyn:
Sweet. Can I ask a question around these?
Marley:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
What are some of the main challenges and concerns that you hear in the workshops when you're presenting?
Kailey:
Well, there's kind of two categories. I would say there's the kind of cultural barriers, people's internal thoughts about what it means to ride a bike and how they have to look. And as Marley said, they don't have to wait to look a certain way or feel a certain way to get on a bike. And then also the external culture of what other people expect a cyclist to look like, and how that can make it feel pretty uncomfortable, even unsafe to be on a bike as a bigger person. There's also the physical barriers, you know, bikes have weight limits, the components on them have weight limits, and then obviously, in all aspects of life, clothing sizes can be limiting for people in larger bodies, and even more so with athletic gear. So we talk about what's worked for us when we do workshops for people in larger bodies that are hoping to get into biking, but then we also work with the industry because there's a lot of work to be done to make bikes, more inclusive machines and then make the clothes work for more people.
Katelyn:
Sure. Well, let's dive into the emotional component of this. If if you're open to it. For anybody who's listening, because, you know, this is a really valuable question that I would love to get both of your opinions on but how would you support somebody who's having that moment of, I'm never gonna do this, or this is something that I’m having trouble doing right now because of the stigma because of how uncomfortable I am myself and also the discomfort that I'm anticipating from other people as well, too. How do you support your attendees in navigating that emotional barrier? What's one or two exercises or just entering points to begin navigating that for somebody who is in this space right now, at this moment?
Marley:
I think the first thing is acknowledging that their feelings are totally valid. You know, in so many spaces, in our society, we're told that we don't belong, or we shouldn't be doing an activity or we should be exercising only to lose weight, not for joyful movement- which is really what Kailey and I focus on. So I think that the first thing is acknowledging it and not diminishing those feelings. The second part is providing resources, so people can go at their own pace when they're ready. So, you know, I think a lot of folks, especially in larger bodies, at least in my experience, like to learn as much as they can. So figure out all the information possible and arm themselves. And then when they are ready to do that, they know as much as possible. And then kind of the third leg of that stool is providing community. And so Kailey and I have really, I think, created and started an awesome community around this. So we've got an Instagram page, and we have a Facebook group that is probably the most positive Facebook group that I've ever been a part of. I think every day like 100 new people join, and it's a little overwhelming, to be honest. It's called All Bodies On Bikes. And people just post the most genuine, uplifting stuff in there, whether it's, Hey, I just got on a bike for the first time in 20 years, or I went for a 20 mile ride with my kids, or, hey, I weigh this much and I'm looking for a bicycle, does anybody have suggestions? The community is supportive and encouraging. So I think providing that kind of resource in that community helps other folks see that they're not alone in this journey. So I think that's how I approach it. I don't know, Kailey, if you have other tactics that you use.
Kailey:
Yeah, I think, you know, we also recommend that people find friends or family that they're comfortable doing this activity with. I think for me, going out on a bike ride alone, as a fat person for the first time would have been really scary. But having a group of friends, you know, regardless of body size, that were interested in riding bikes, for fun, willing to go the pace I needed, who knew the rules of the road, so that I didn't have to deal with not only the stress of being a larger person doing this physical public activity, but also the you know, the reality of being on the road with other people you know, who can make it really fun and joyful? I think that's the key. I think, finding a bike shop or person with bike knowledge in your community that you're comfortable talking with openly about your concerns, your physical concerns, or your emotional concerns with biking is key. And also something we've been hearing from people is that they weren't comfortable going outside on a bike to begin with. And so they invested in indoor cycling, especially during COVID I think with a trainer or a Peloton, or you know, whatever it looks like. And that's been how they got into cycling. And to that Marley and I- we jokingly in the workshop, but it's really not a joke, say that if you've been on an indoor trainer for the last year, or however long or even a week or a day, indoor biking is way harder than outdoor biking. Like physically I think it's so much harder. You know, riding your bike outside can be very casual if you want to, and you make it that way. So, if you've been on an indoor trainer, and you're wondering, like, Can I physically do this, you know, yeah, you're gonna be dealing with weather and traffic and some other elements. And hopefully you could find a bike path or somewhere safe to to practice biking without all of those external factors. But physically, you're going to feel a lot of ease when you get on a bike. If that's how you've approached biking to begin with. So yeah, I mean, and I think everybody is different and Marley and I do a lot of one on one conversations. with people about these emotions or fears around biking for the first time as a larger person, and you know, talking to people one on one is probably the best way to get people feeling comfortable.
Katelyn:
Yeah, I love this, it sounds like a really inclusive supportive space, which I am not surprised at all to hear. But these are all really helpful suggestions and ways to emphasize how to actually take the next step for anybody who's listening. And of course, we'll link your community so that everybody can find you as well, too. But before we go into the other part of your workshops, and working with the industries, and the advocacy work for making change in the industry, I want to pause and go back to a question that keeps coming up in my mind- the power is stepping into using the term fat as a descriptor. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this or your personal experience in the resistance, first of all, and also the empowerment and being able to use that descriptor for yourself. And anybody who is hearing this and thinking I'm scared shitless right now thinking about calling myself this, what does that mean? What's the emotional component? What would you want people to know?
Kailey:
You know, fat has been a word that has been synonymous for lots of, you know, kind of undesirable things like being lazy, or unattractive or unworthy, or something. And it's also been a word that I think a lot of us use, or stay away from based on the permanence of it. I know, for me, that was a big thing. Like, if I call myself fat, you know, even though this doesn't necessarily mean this, but if I call myself fat, it's like admitting that I'm not trying to be smaller. That's not necessarily inherent in the word. But I think, for me, getting to the point where I could call myself fat meant that I needed to be comfortable with the fact that might be how my body is forever. And that's okay. I think, like how it plays out, you know, calling myself fat feels pretty good. I feel like I've taken that word, and made it a neutral descriptor of myself. And Marley talked about this- if you call yourself fat, it makes it really hard for people to use it as an insult against you. Because you've already called yourself fat. And it's not an insult. And so I like removing that word from the arsenal of ways that people could try to attack me online. But I also just like how it feels that I'm able to admit to people in my life that Yeah, I know that I'm in a larger body, like, I know, I'm fat. And it's okay, if we all just get it out on the table rather than some hidden thing that I have to feel ashamed of.
Katelyn:
It's empowering- everything that you just shared. And I love how you mentioned using fat as a neutral descriptor, and just taking the emotional charge out of it.
Marley:
Yeah, I use it like, cool. I'm 5’2, I'm blonde. Well, now I've purple teal hair. It's like, no big deal. You just throw it out there on the table, like Kailey said. The other thing is, it wasn't always easy to use this word for me. When I first started using it, it felt like coming out to me. So I'm also a queer person. And every time I used it felt like coming out and admitting this to people, even though like, you look at me, it's not like I'm hiding anything. Like, it's not like it was like, Oh my god, I'm so surprised. You're a fat woman, like duh. So, to me, it felt like I was getting a weight off my shoulders, just acknowledging it in a very neutral way.
Katelyn:
Yeah, I love that. And I love the comparison of coming out and really claiming that for yourself and the release of being able to claim that for yourself and the power. I really feel that in your story as well too.
Marley:
It can still be a fraught conversation, especially at work. Well, I guess until yesterday, I had a super corporate job. And a lot of folks there don't know that I do this work on the side. And so it'll come up in conversation or whatnot. Like, oh yeah, I'm a fat adventure cyclist. And they chuckle awkwardly or uncomfortably. And I'm like, No, really, like, that's what I do. And they just don't know how to react. I don't necessarily love making people uncomfortable. But I do, like using the word just in a super neutral way.
Katelyn:
Yeah. I am certainly not comparing myself to your stories, but I always like to find entry points into being able to empathize. And when I started really doing work around destigmatizing eating disorders and my own story around bulimia, it felt like the same thing. Like, I can tell people would tense up and get really uncomfortable and it made me uncomfortable seeing them react that way. But there's so much power in being able to claim your own personal story and your own personal mission and your own work in this world and your body at any size and your body's stories. I think that's so powerful. Let's bring it back to the second tier of workshops that you do, which is really industry related, like you said, So what does this look like? What's your mission and your purpose in doing this work with, with bike industries, and your focus on change there?
Marley:
Yeah. So as Kailey talked about, you know, we can change the cultural perception of fat people, all we want. And that's awesome. But at the end of the day, there's still structural barriers, for larger people getting onto bicycles, whether that is clothing. I mean, granted, you can ride a bike in whatever clothes you want, but there are some clothes that undoubtedly make cycling more comfortable. And if they don't come in your size, at all, that's a problem. There's also safety considerations. So bikes have a structural weight limit. And oftentimes, that is prohibitively low. Kailey and I have been over the weight limit of our bicycles, and, thankfully, knock on wood, nothing tragic has happened to us. I have broken countless number of spokes on my wheel, because I was just exceeding the capacity of it. So the goal of our conversations with the bike industry is awareness that there is an entire market out there that they're missing education on how to serve people in larger bodies better. And then working with them, you know, consulting with them to actually make the changes. We want quality bikes that look good and have good components. We want clothing that looks good, and makes us feel good and fits us. So yeah, we're kind of talking to any company that will listen to us right now. We're doing education on it. And then hopefully working with them through the design process to bring this into reality.
Katelyn:
Love. So important. What are some of your favorite companies or brands that you've worked with who you're excited about the changes that you hope they're going to make coming up?
Marley:
Yeah, this is a little bit challenging, because Kailey and I are both ambassadors for a couple companies. So I think we have to be careful about what exactly we say.
Kailey:
I mean, I will say I am an ambassador for this clothing company. But I also think they're really doing a good job in pushing themselves- they’re called Machines for Freedom. And they go up to a 3XL, which is not enough, frankly, not high enough. But they are doing everything to bring their sizes higher. In a really responsible way, a really good way. And working on pushing themselves further. I will say, neither Marley or I is an ambassador for this company, but Our Sport is a triathlon brand that goes up to 6XL, which is the highest that we found bike specific clothing sizing. And so that's really great. You know, bike companies that make bikes, we've had conversations with a couple of them. And I've been really impressed by the company's willingness to support the work we're doing, but also to say, you know, how can we engineer a stronger bike? Marley, do you want to speak to that at all?
Marley:
Sure and I can shout out that I'm a current ambassador for pearl Izumi. And they are affiliated with Shimano who sponsored the film, which is how I got that relationship. And it was a little bit frustrating at first to be honest because most of their stuff does not fit me. But working with their design teams, they have been incredibly open to my feedback and designing, actually making prototypes in larger sizes that will hopefully be included in future catalogs and rollout. So that's been such a great experience. So kudos to them for taking the leap and learning about it. As far as working with the bike industry, I guess we've talked about that. But on the hard good side, talking about actual frames, and brakes and wheels. This one is a little bit harder. I mean, Kailey and I have been riding bikes for a long time. So we have our personal experience, but neither of us are engineers. And so we approach this conversation as customers basically saying, This is our experience. How, how can we approach this together? You know, we're clearly not experts in this field, but this is our experience. This is what we're hearing from our audience. Can we do something about this? And so far, the response has been great.
Katelyn:
That's amazing. So it sounds like a really collaborative effort on your part. And you also have this amazing lived experience and community that you're able to really pull valuable information from as well as to share with these companies, which is incredible.
Marley:
Yeah, I don't know if amazing is the right word- frustrating at times.
Katelyn:
Oh, of course, of course. Definitely.
Marley:
Being a fat person in this space and going through the experience of is this bike gonna support me like, oh, cool, I just broke another spoke, like having that and be able to tell the engineers or the product developers, like, Hey, this is what happens when you put a 300 pound person with 50 pounds of camping gear on this bicycle. And they're like, Oh, cool. Let's talk about it. Like, where are the failure points? It's really exciting.
Katelyn:
Well, I'm celebrating you and there's no doubt that it's frustrating, but you're actually doing something about it. So how amazing for everybody else for the change that you're committed to making in the world for yourselves and for everybody around you, in actually using your voice and, and speaking up and really doing something about it. I mean, that is amazing to me. And that is so inspiring. If one company is listening right now, and you're and you're like, man, if we could really just inspire one company to make a change right now this would be the coolest thing ever which company would you pick?
Marley:
Oh, gosh. Kailey, Do you have one? That is a tough one. Actually, I've got it. It would be either Huffy bikes or Schwinn because I think they’re the go-to for so much of the entry level market. And I think a lot of people in the US, you know, they're not necessarily bike brands that I would put myself on. But I think a lot of folks get on those and then don't necessarily have the best experience because they exceed the weight limit. But I think if those brands would be willing to make stronger bikes and get those into your big box stores- your Walmart, your Target, your K-Mart, where people are buying affordable bikes, I think that would make a really big difference to a lot of people who buy a bike and then have a really bad first experience.
Kailey:
Yeah, that's a great point. This is the opposite end of that kind of consumer spectrum but anyone who makes highly technical gear, like really good rain jackets. There is no plus size jacket in like a gore tex material, or anything similar. I've biked 1000s of miles without a working rain jacket. I've been in hyperthermic conditions because I don't have a rain jacket. Same thing goes with, you know, waterproof pants or insulated clothing for cold weather. It's just really challenging to find good clothing that works in extreme conditions for people in larger bodies, and we're out there doing it. And that means we're out there without the proper and safe gear.
Katelyn:
So if anyone's listening who works at any of these companies, these are fabulous resources to reach out to and also use your voice within your company as well too. Or even if you don't work at a company, we can all work together to make changes. I'm inspired by this conversation. I also can't let you leave without talking about the story of this film. So how did this even come onto your radar the opportunity to make this film?
Marley:
Yeah, it was in a roundabout sort of way. So Kailey and I did that presentation she was talking about at the summit. And with some encouragement from a friend, we applied to present it at the League of American Bicyclists Summit in Washington DC, which is a big advocacy Leadership Conference in DC. We fundraised, we planned to get out there, and then COVID hit. So we ended up doing the presentation virtually, which was a blessing in disguise because so many more people from around the world were able to attend. And through that process, there was an article written about us in the Washington Post. And I'm not sure Kailey how the timing exactly worked out. But your friend Zepplin, who you went to college with who's a filmmaker, got wind of our story, and basically said, Hey, I would love to tell your story in a film. So I might have the exact order a little bit messed up here. But we said sure That sounds fun. And so he went about getting funding. And then from there, it was logistics. Well, I should say Shimano provided the funding, so thank you to them. And then it was the logistics of how we go backpacking with a film crew in the middle of COVID.
Katelyn:
So how did you? Honestly, before when I was watching your film, and we were getting ready for this interview, as everybody knows, I don't really plan out questions. But that was one of the questions that came to mind is how did you go on this bike adventure with a film crew? And how long did it take? Where did you shoot? What's like the behind the scenes that you're open to sharing with us?
Kailey:
Yeah, so the film director came down or came up from Utah with two other filmmakers. So there was a crew of three of them. And then Marley and I. So five total. And it was at a time during COVID where testing wasn't readily available. It was before we knew about the possibility of vaccines coming. So a pretty scary time, but at a sort of a lull in cases in the Pacific Northwest. So we all quarantined ahead of time, so that we were trying to reduce risk as much as we could and then fortunately, biking is an outdoor activity. And so we were really only outside together and either in biking scenes or in camping scenes. And so that really probably reduced COVID risk. But anyways, the film was pretty much entirely done in Corvallis, Oregon where I live and then we did a group ride scene in Seattle where Marley lives and the bike trip that we went on that overnight leaves from my house in Corvallis, Oregon and then goes to the coast, which is about a little under 60 miles I believe, to the coast from here and through a mountain range. And for Tchen Utley, a good portion of that trip. Not the whole thing is drivable. It's on gravel roads that cars can go on for a good part of it. But there was probably the most beautiful section of the trip where the car couldn't come with us, which was unfortunate because I think they would love to get shots of that portion of the ride. But then they were able to meet us at the campground that's halfway on the route and then drive the rest of the way with us. So they drove in a van with all of their gear. And we stayed on our bikes, and they followed us through that. And then same thing with the mountain biking shots and the group ride- they either were on a Segway, which was pretty funny as a way to keep up with us or in their van or using drones that could keep up with the bikes. So they didn't film from bikes, but they use lots of cool technology to get shots of us on our bikes.
Katelyn:
Oh my god. That's so cool. What's something that really stands out to you that wasn't captured in the film, whether it was a really amazing shot, a blooper or something that was really challenging that you had to kind of work through.
Marley:
It's funny because in the trailers, there's a quick shot of it, but it doesn't actually make it into the film. But there was a moment on the second day where Kailey and I were climbing and we went around this corner and almost got hit by a car. And it was so scary. You know, we're out on these remote forest roads, and you don't expect cars to be there. So we were taking up the whole road. It's a single lane road. And it scared the crap out of me. And kind of interrupted my whole emotional flow of the day. And so maybe 20 minutes later, we were going through this clearing and crested the hill, where the film crew met us. And when we got there, I was just an emotional wreck. You know, I had all these visions in my head of dying, and I was thinking of my friends who had passed from riding their bikes and getting hit by cars. I think I was also bonking at the time. I don't know if you're familiar with that term. But basically, it's a term used in biking. I don't know if other sports use it. But where you just need to eat like your body is not really working, your brain isn't working. For me, my emotions go haywire. And I just really need to eat. And we got to the top of the hill, and I'm just like crying and a mess. And that didn't make it into the film. But I think that that really showed that bike packing and bicycling isn't always sunshine and rainbows. But that's also part of the reason I do it is to get in touch with my feelings and to experience those highs and those lows and to feel things. I kind of wish more of that would have been shown but that's okay.
Katelyn:
It's like bike therapy.
Marley:
It is. Yeah.
Kailey:
I think it's funny- we had such a great time, the five of us, which obviously was not part of the film, like, because it wasn't a story about people making a film. But we had such a good time with the film crew. And it was honestly kind of a surprise, because they all are amazing filmmakers. But they have typically made these extreme sports movies and they are all you know, cisgendered, white, thin men and they themselves are pretty extreme athletes. So going into it, I was worried about how we would all get along and how they would tell our story. And instead it ended up being like, the most fun seven days, ever. And they were so wonderful to work with and just told our story so well and respectfully and through our lens, and did an amazing job. But all the times that we just had such a blast, all hanging out together. So I think it was kind of an unlikely group of people that just really hit it off.
Katelyn:
And I'm sure it was just such a fun time, especially during COVID. The joy of spending time with other people during that time.
Kailey:
Yeah, it was such a total privilege to be able to do that during COVID.
Katelyn:
Totally. Well, of course, we will link this incredible film, which I highly encourage everyone to watch. It is seriously one of the best things that I've watched in 2020 because that's when I watched it last year. And I have watched it several times since then. But yeah, thank you so much for being here and sharing your stories and your truth and the work that you're doing in this world and the time and the effort and the commitment that you have for making this change showing up for your communities. I just really appreciate you and so glad that we got to have this conversation. Where can everybody connect with you and get into this community and just be a part of your world?
Marley:
So the Facebook group is All Bodies On Bikes. That's also the Instagram, Kailey and I need to be better about adding content to that. And then we can each be reached on our own Instagrams, mine is @marleyblonsky.
Kailey:
And mine is @kornhausersauce. My last name plus the word sauce.
Katelyn:
When I first discovered that I was like hell yes- where did that even come from?
Kailey:
It was like, you know, in college, it was a nickname because I think it's like worcestershire sauce. Like my last name was kind of like that so hey would always call me Kornhauser sauce and Instagram came out when I was in college, so I'm stuck with it.
Katelyn:
Oh, you're never allowed to change it. It's so fabulous. I love it. You guys are awesome. Thank you so much for being here.
Marley:'
Thank you.